The van has done it again

[Andrew]

Need I say any more?
AA took 57 minutes to turn up, my longest ever wait.
A very simple breakdown but they just did not have the part.
Alternator belt.
Would most cars or vans give a warning light if it snapped?

We had this discussion in another thread when I noted that
you no longer see broken 'fan' belts on the side of the road
like we used to with the old V-belts.

having watched my neighbour wrestling with these belts
on a variety of cars on his drive, I wouldn't want to have
to try and replace on on the side of the road.

Some Fords don't even have means of adjustment. They are
'stretch fit' and need a special tool to guide it over all
the ribs on the pulleys into the correct position.

[ARW]

Post by Andrew

Need I say any more?
AA took 57 minutes to turn up, my longest ever wait.
A very simple breakdown but they just did not have the part.
Alternator belt.
Would most cars or vans give a warning light if it snapped?

We had this discussion in another thread when I noted that
you no longer see broken 'fan' belts on the side of the road
like we used to with the old V-belts.
having watched my neighbour wrestling with these belts
on a variety of cars on his drive, I wouldn't want to have
to try and replace on on the side of the road.
Some Fords don't even have means of adjustment. They are
'stretch fit' and need a special tool to guide it over all
the ribs on the pulleys into the correct position.

For "special tool" do you mean a screwdriver?

[Peter Hill]

Post by ARW

Post by Andrew

Need I say any more?
AA took 57 minutes to turn up, my longest ever wait.
A very simple breakdown but they just did not have the part.
Alternator belt.
Would most cars or vans give a warning light if it snapped?

We had this discussion in another thread when I noted that
you no longer see broken 'fan' belts on the side of the road
like we used to with the old V-belts.
having watched my neighbour wrestling with these belts
on a variety of cars on his drive, I wouldn't want to have
to try and replace on on the side of the road.
Some Fords don't even have means of adjustment. They are
'stretch fit' and need a special tool to guide it over all
the ribs on the pulleys into the correct position.

For "special tool" do you mean a screwdriver?

I've seen two modern wide serpentine belts on the road in the last
month. Like you I thought "not seen one of those for some time". Maybe
they were fitted with a screwdriver?

The tool is a sort of ramp and using a screwdriver is going to damage
the belt.
https://www.gatestechzone.com/en/installation/belts-and-kits/elastic-belts

Some belt kits come with the tool, a bit of bent metal that clips to the
pulley.
Supposedly universal tools around £15.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Auxiliary-Elasticated-Stretch-Ribbed-Pulley-Drive-Belt-Removal-Installation-Tool/252441682797
Others it's quite expensive for a one off use and something you
shouldn't need in the first place. £33 for Subaru.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gates-Subaru-Micro-V-Stretch-Fit-Belt-Installation-Tool-/221907278315

I view expensive ones as franchise dealer lock in tool. Back street
mechanic has to add the tool cost to the job as they may never see a 2nd
one.

[Jim Stewart]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by ARW

Post by Andrew

Need I say any more?
AA took 57 minutes to turn up, my longest ever wait.
A very simple breakdown but they just did not have the part.
Alternator belt.
Would most cars or vans give a warning light if it snapped?

We had this discussion in another thread when I noted that
you no longer see broken 'fan' belts on the side of the road
like we used to with the old V-belts.
having watched my neighbour wrestling with these belts
on a variety of cars on his drive, I wouldn't want to have
to try and replace on on the side of the road.
Some Fords don't even have means of adjustment. They are
'stretch fit' and need a special tool to guide it over all
the ribs on the pulleys into the correct position.

For "special tool" do you mean a screwdriver?

I've seen two modern wide serpentine belts on the road in the last
month. Like you I thought "not seen one of those for some time". Maybe
they were fitted with a screwdriver?
The tool is a sort of ramp and using a screwdriver is going to damage
the belt.
https://www.gatestechzone.com/en/installation/belts-and-kits/elastic-belts
Some belt kits come with the tool, a bit of bent metal that clips to the
pulley.
Supposedly universal tools around £15.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Auxiliary-Elasticated-Stretch-Ribbed-Pulley-Drive-Belt-Removal-Installation-Tool/252441682797
Others it's quite expensive for a one off use and something you
shouldn't need in the first place. £33 for Subaru.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gates-Subaru-Micro-V-Stretch-Fit-Belt-Installation-Tool-/221907278315
I view expensive ones as franchise dealer lock in tool. Back street
mechanic has to add the tool cost to the job as they may never see a 2nd
one.

that is some polava all to save the manufacturer a few pence in
manufacturing costs by omiting the tensioner...that with rubber cam
belts they should be giving the engines away ....is there a list of
manufacturers fitting these works of the devil ? ...

[RJH]

Post by Jim Stewart

Post by Peter Hill

Post by ARW

Post by Andrew

Need I say any more?
AA took 57 minutes to turn up, my longest ever wait.
A very simple breakdown but they just did not have the part.
Alternator belt.
Would most cars or vans give a warning light if it snapped?

We had this discussion in another thread when I noted that
you no longer see broken 'fan' belts on the side of the road
like we used to with the old V-belts.
having watched my neighbour wrestling with these belts
on a variety of cars on his drive, I wouldn't want to have
to try and replace on on the side of the road.
Some Fords don't even have means of adjustment. They are
'stretch fit' and need a special tool to guide it over all
the ribs on the pulleys into the correct position.

For "special tool" do you mean a screwdriver?

I've seen two modern wide serpentine belts on the road in the last
month. Like you I thought "not seen one of those for some time". Maybe
they were fitted with a screwdriver?
The tool is a sort of ramp and using a screwdriver is going to damage
the belt.
https://www.gatestechzone.com/en/installation/belts-and-kits/elastic-belts
Some belt kits come with the tool, a bit of bent metal that clips to the
pulley.
Supposedly universal tools around £15.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Auxiliary-Elasticated-Stretch-Ribbed-Pulley-Drive-Belt-Removal-Installation-Tool/252441682797
Others it's quite expensive for a one off use and something you
shouldn't need in the first place. £33 for Subaru.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gates-Subaru-Micro-V-Stretch-Fit-Belt-Installation-Tool-/221907278315
I view expensive ones as franchise dealer lock in tool. Back street
mechanic has to add the tool cost to the job as they may never see a 2nd
one.

that is some polava all to save the manufacturer a few pence in
manufacturing costs by omiting the tensioner...that with rubber cam
belts they should be giving the engines away ....is there a list of
manufacturers fitting these works of the devil ? ...

Having only fitted belts with a tensioner, I quite like this tool-fit idea -
saves the vagueness of the 'deflect 1/2" at mid-point', where that point is
buried out of sight, and applies to what could well be a belt of different
properties.

[NY]

Post by RJH
Having only fitted belts with a tensioner, I quite like this tool-fit idea -
saves the vagueness of the 'deflect 1/2" at mid-point', where that point is
buried out of sight, and applies to what could well be a belt of different
properties.

I would expect that if a manufacturer said 'deflect by 1/2"' it would be
measured at the point of the tensioner wheel rather than at some arbitrary
point where the belt is not normally deflected. I'd also expect the
measurement to be unique to the belt - ie if you get one that is more
stretchy, its deflection point would be different.

Ideally the bracket that the tensioner wheel is attached to should have a
calibrated scale so you can see how far from the neutral position you have
to move it before tightening the locking bolt.

[Tim+]

Post by NY

Post by RJH
Having only fitted belts with a tensioner, I quite like this tool-fit idea -
saves the vagueness of the 'deflect 1/2" at mid-point', where that point is
buried out of sight, and applies to what could well be a belt of different
properties.

I would expect that if a manufacturer said 'deflect by 1/2"' it would be
measured at the point of the tensioner wheel rather than at some arbitrary
point where the belt is not normally deflected.

Deflection at a midpoint or other accessible part *between* pulleys is the
normal way to do it.

Post by NY
I'd also expect the
measurement to be unique to the belt - ie if you get one that is more
stretchy, its deflection point would be different.

I imagine all modern belts are designed to be as “un-stretchy” as possible
but the difference in distance between pulleys on different engines means
that a half inch of deflection on one engine won’t necessarily correspond
to the same belt tension on another engine.

Tim

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Tim+

Post by NY

Post by RJH
Having only fitted belts with a tensioner, I quite like this tool-fit idea -
saves the vagueness of the 'deflect 1/2" at mid-point', where that point is
buried out of sight, and applies to what could well be a belt of different
properties.

I would expect that if a manufacturer said 'deflect by 1/2"' it would be
measured at the point of the tensioner wheel rather than at some arbitrary
point where the belt is not normally deflected.

Deflection at a midpoint or other accessible part *between* pulleys is the
normal way to do it.

Post by NY
I'd also expect the
measurement to be unique to the belt - ie if you get one that is more
stretchy, its deflection point would be different.

I imagine all modern belts are designed to be as “un-stretchy” as possible
but the difference in distance between pulleys on different engines means
that a half inch of deflection on one engine won’t necessarily correspond
to the same belt tension on another engine.

toothed belts do not NEED to be set to any great tension. More expensive
to make esp. the pulleys but far longer lasting

Post by Tim+
Tim

--
“it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.”

Vaclav Klaus

[Brian Reay]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim+

Post by NY

Post by RJH
Having only fitted belts with a tensioner, I quite like this tool-fit idea -
saves the vagueness of the 'deflect 1/2" at mid-point', where that point is
buried out of sight, and applies to what could well be a belt of different
properties.

I would expect that if a manufacturer said 'deflect by 1/2"' it would be
measured at the point of the tensioner wheel rather than at some arbitrary
point where the belt is not normally deflected.

Deflection at a midpoint or other accessible part *between* pulleys is the
normal way to do it.

Post by NY
I'd also expect the
measurement to be unique to the belt - ie if you get one that is more
stretchy, its deflection point would be different.

I imagine all modern belts are designed to be as “un-stretchy” as possible
but the difference in distance between pulleys on different engines means
that a half inch of deflection on one engine won’t necessarily correspond
to the same belt tension on another engine.

toothed belts do not NEED to be set to any great tension. More expensive
to make esp. the pulleys but far longer lasting

Over several cars (and I dread to think how many miles) with modern toothed
belts, I’ve never seen one break or even show signs of wear.

Even the old style V fan belts weren’t that bad, I only ever replaced one (
on a friend’s Mini). I used to carry one in my Escort but it was still in
the boot, unused, when I sold it.

Cam belts can be more of a problem. I did have one fail on my Orion. I’ve
always been wary of them since but, touch wood, that is the only one I’ve
had issues with.

As for tensioning, the method varies from car to car. Some specify a jig/
tool, others the deflection method at some point in the run. At least one I
recall seeing details for involved a gentle twist of the belt.

[Jim Stewart]

Post by RJH

Post by Jim Stewart

Post by Peter Hill

Post by ARW

Post by Andrew

Need I say any more?
AA took 57 minutes to turn up, my longest ever wait.
A very simple breakdown but they just did not have the part.
Alternator belt.
Would most cars or vans give a warning light if it snapped?

We had this discussion in another thread when I noted that
you no longer see broken 'fan' belts on the side of the road
like we used to with the old V-belts.
having watched my neighbour wrestling with these belts
on a variety of cars on his drive, I wouldn't want to have
to try and replace on on the side of the road.
Some Fords don't even have means of adjustment. They are
'stretch fit' and need a special tool to guide it over all
the ribs on the pulleys into the correct position.

For "special tool" do you mean a screwdriver?

I've seen two modern wide serpentine belts on the road in the last
month. Like you I thought "not seen one of those for some time". Maybe
they were fitted with a screwdriver?
The tool is a sort of ramp and using a screwdriver is going to damage
the belt.
https://www.gatestechzone.com/en/installation/belts-and-kits/elastic-belts
Some belt kits come with the tool, a bit of bent metal that clips to the
pulley.
Supposedly universal tools around £15.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Auxiliary-Elasticated-Stretch-Ribbed-Pulley-Drive-Belt-Removal-Installation-Tool/252441682797
Others it's quite expensive for a one off use and something you
shouldn't need in the first place. £33 for Subaru.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gates-Subaru-Micro-V-Stretch-Fit-Belt-Installation-Tool-/221907278315
I view expensive ones as franchise dealer lock in tool. Back street
mechanic has to add the tool cost to the job as they may never see a 2nd
one.

that is some polava all to save the manufacturer a few pence in
manufacturing costs by omiting the tensioner...that with rubber cam
belts they should be giving the engines away ....is there a list of
manufacturers fitting these works of the devil ? ...

Having only fitted belts with a tensioner, I quite like this tool-fit idea -
saves the vagueness of the 'deflect 1/2" at mid-point', where that point is
buried out of sight, and applies to what could well be a belt of different
properties.

Oh dear ....

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Andrew
Some Fords don't even have means of adjustment. They are
'stretch fit' and need a special tool to guide it over all
the ribs on the pulleys into the correct position.

Don't they have a spring loaded jockey pulley?

[Andrew]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Andrew
Some Fords don't even have means of adjustment. They are
'stretch fit' and need a special tool to guide it over all
the ribs on the pulleys into the correct position.

Don't they have a spring loaded jockey pulley?

Nope. nothing at all. The belt is made to fit with the
correct tension from new, as installed on the production
line. Saves a few quid per car, which mounts up if you
build millions of them world-wide.

Saabs with their version of a GM engine had an
enormous serpentine belt driving loads of stuff. That
had a spring-loaded jockey wheel but you needed a long
bar with a fitting that engaged with the jockey wheel
body and two people to get the belt in place over and
under all the pulleys while holding the jockey wheel
back.

[Jethro_uk]

[quoted text muted]

Nope. nothing at all. The belt is made to fit with the correct tension
from new, as installed on the production line.

Presumably there's a slight elasticity to the belt that allows it to be
fitted though ?

[Andrew]

Post by Jethro_uk

[quoted text muted]

Nope. nothing at all. The belt is made to fit with the correct tension
from new, as installed on the production line.

Presumably there's a slight elasticity to the belt that allows it to be
fitted though ?

Yes. The 'special tool' is some sort of plastic deflector
that allows the belt to gradually 'jump across' the
multiple grooves while the engine is turned with a socket set.
I'll ask my neighbour next time I see him, he has done a few.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Andrew
Saabs with their version of a GM engine had an
enormous serpentine belt driving loads of stuff. That
had a spring-loaded jockey wheel but you needed a long
bar with a fitting that engaged with the jockey wheel
body and two people to get the belt in place over and
under all the pulleys while holding the jockey wheel
back.

They should have bought a decent engine from BMW. On mine - a 90s model,
it was simple to lock the jockey pulley open, replace the belt, then
release the tension back into the jockey pulley. Only ever did it once,
and no special tools needed. IIRC, just a decent socket set and allen key.
Way easier than changing and tensioning the fan belt on the older car.
Provided you noted the route of the serpentine belt.

[RJH]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Andrew
Saabs with their version of a GM engine had an
enormous serpentine belt driving loads of stuff. That
had a spring-loaded jockey wheel but you needed a long
bar with a fitting that engaged with the jockey wheel
body and two people to get the belt in place over and
under all the pulleys while holding the jockey wheel
back.

They should have bought a decent engine from BMW.

Think they knew how to build a decent engine - some of the strongest and most
innovative passenger car engines ever built in fact. And as well as the
engineering, decent manufacturing methods (pre-GM at least).

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
On mine - a 90s model,
it was simple to lock the jockey pulley open, replace the belt, then
release the tension back into the jockey pulley. Only ever did it once,
and no special tools needed. IIRC, just a decent socket set and allen key.
Way easier than changing and tensioning the fan belt on the older car.
Provided you noted the route of the serpentine belt.

Again - personally, I wouldn't lament the need for a service tool if it meant
a better engineered solution with an assured fit. On the loose assumption it
was reasonably easy to hire or buy.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by RJH

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
They should have bought a decent engine from BMW.

Think they knew how to build a decent engine - some of the strongest and most
innovative passenger car engines ever built in fact. And as well as the
engineering, decent manufacturing methods (pre-GM at least).

Their previous four cylinder unit was a much modified Triumph (BL) unit.

[RJH]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by RJH

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
They should have bought a decent engine from BMW.

Think they knew how to build a decent engine - some of the strongest and most
innovative passenger car engines ever built in fact. And as well as the
engineering, decent manufacturing methods (pre-GM at least).

Their previous four cylinder unit was a much modified Triumph (BL) unit.

Yup - don't even think it was that modified in the early versions. I had a
late 70s 99 which had the more modified and built in-house version. Splendidly
bolted together car - but rusted to bits before its 20th birthday.

[Dan S. MacAbre]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Andrew
Some Fords don't even have means of adjustment. They are
'stretch fit' and need a special tool to guide it over all
the ribs on the pulleys into the correct position.

Don't they have a spring loaded jockey pulley?

On me old Fiesta, if you get a 'proper' OEM belt, there is a little bent
piece of steel supplied that makes a very difficult job into a simple
one. Instead of throwing it away after the job, I keep one in the car
'just in case'.