Other than "investment", Is there a future for classic car/bike?

[Peter Hill]

The evidence.

1: Derek Mathewson on the TV show "Bangers and Cash" lamented that sales
of older vintage vehicles were in decline and "difficult". Most of these
being coachbuilt by craftsmen come with lots of character and non
standard controls like advance/retard lever, or heaven forbid the
throttle on the steering wheel.

2: Bike magazine. July 2020, page 10. "Certainly stuff from the 70's is
doing very well", says Bryan. 'Conversely, many 1940 and 50s bikes are
getting harder to sell, unless they're a Vincent.'

I'm sure the same can be said about cars unless it's a Ferrari, Aston or
other "investment grade" car.

3: VMCC journal is reporting attracting new members to be a problem.
Even though the club has a rolling 25 year eligibility rule so includes
bikes up to 1995. It's probably seen as a club for bikes with "odd
controls", like advance/retard and air levers on the handlebars.

Out of sight, out of mind. One part of the problem is the current owners
tendency to hoard. On "Bangers and Cash" there have been a number of
cars bought by collectors with sheds full of cars, they have to sell one
to make room for the latest (sometimes by command of a partner). I know
of a number of people with (very) private museums, 50+ bikes none of
which have seen the light of day or turned a wheel on the road for a
decade (or 2 or 3!). When all the examples of a more obscure marque are
either in transport museums or a few private collections (maybe under 20
nationally for each marque), where will this number of buyers come from
when those collections get broken up on the death of the hoarder and the
market is flooded with 50 of them? How many Chater-Lea or De Dion Bouton
can be sold in one year when the current collectors have passed on? You
can hardly expect someone from the younger generations to have become an
enthusiast for a marque when they haven't seen them, had a go in one,
much less be able to buy one. If the collection goes only to increase
the hoard that the few remaining collectors have, it will only make the
problem worse a few years later when they too pass on.

Every time an old vehicle is restored to top condition and is sold to an
"investor" it disappears from the transport festivals. Just like the
ones that are hoarded away by marque enthusiasts have.

All EV's are automatic, single speed. In the USA having a stick shift is
now seen as an anti theft device as only 17% of the population can drive
one. Nearly all bikes except a few rarities and "twist and go" step
thrus have manual gearboxes. UK sales of manual cars has suffered a
massive decline in the last ten years and automatics are now 40% of the
market. This shift to automatics and EV will make all older vehicles
with manual gearboxes and clutches completely inaccessible to a huge
part of the population. I think that in 30 or so years this may become
as big a bar to purchase to anyone looking to buy an older vehicle as
advance/retard levers on handlebar/steering wheel are now.

Currently there are bars to people taking the UK driving test in an
automatic. Only 7% of instructors offer automatics and there is a hike
in insurance premium for having an automatic only license.

[Pipl]

Post by Peter Hill
The evidence.
1: Derek Mathewson on the TV show "Bangers and Cash" lamented that sales
of older vintage vehicles were in decline and "difficult". Most of these
being coachbuilt by craftsmen come with lots of character and non
standard controls like advance/retard lever, or heaven forbid the
throttle on the steering wheel.

Possibly price has a lot to do with it? Are expectations just too
high? Also, a buyer needs somewhere to keep it. While not a rich man's
hobby, the sort of vehicle you mention isn't for someone who doesn't
at least have access to a lock-up.

Post by Peter Hill
2: Bike magazine. July 2020, page 10. "Certainly stuff from the 70's is
doing very well", says Bryan. 'Conversely, many 1940 and 50s bikes are
getting harder to sell, unless they're a Vincent.'

Maybe someone will stumble upon something rare and take a shine to
it; fair enough. But should every obscure Viliers-powered utility bike
be preserved as a matter of principle, for example?

Post by Peter Hill
I'm sure the same can be said about cars unless it's a Ferrari, Aston or
other "investment grade" car.

Same again

Post by Peter Hill
3: VMCC journal is reporting attracting new members to be a problem.
Even though the club has a rolling 25 year eligibility rule so includes
bikes up to 1995. It's probably seen as a club for bikes with "odd
controls", like advance/retard and air levers on the handlebars.

Partly, I think that owner involvement in vehicles has dropped; people
do care about a brand and image but they expect to buy something that
just works, then throw it at a dealer to service. Rather like a
washing machine. How many Hotpoint owner clubs are there?

Post by Peter Hill
Out of sight, out of mind. One part of the problem is the current owners
tendency to hoard.

Can't really comment on this.

Post by Peter Hill
All EV's are automatic, single speed.

*Almost* all. The conversions done by that company in Wales
occasionally keep the original stick shift transmission.

Post by Peter Hill
UK sales of manual cars has suffered a
massive decline in the last ten years and automatics are now 40% of the
market. This shift to automatics and EV will make all older vehicles
with manual gearboxes and clutches completely inaccessible to a huge
part of the population. I think that in 30 or so years this may become
as big a bar to purchase to anyone looking to buy an older vehicle as
advance/retard levers on handlebar/steering wheel are now.

Hmm, quite possibly.

Post by Peter Hill
Currently there are bars to people taking the UK driving test in an
automatic. Only 7% of instructors offer automatics and there is a hike
in insurance premium for having an automatic only license.

Never heard of the insurance cost thing. Can't see why that should be,
tbh. Aftyer all, in my experience, most accidents are caused by people
not looking where they're going or making errors of judgement, unless
there's a specific cause of incidents that are transmission-specific.

I prefer stick shift but my car is automatic: specifically, a slushbox
automatic. Why? because I like diesels and these generally come with
DMFs these days. In fact, so do some petrol cars now. At the sort of
age and mileage that I buy a car, DMF failure is an increased
possibility and it's the sort of fault that can (apparently, I have no
personal experience) just occur without much warning and leave you
stranded. And it's not something that you can preemptively replace
easily. Or cheaply.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Peter Hill
1: Derek Mathewson on the TV show "Bangers and Cash" lamented that sales
of older vintage vehicles were in decline and "difficult". Most of these
being coachbuilt by craftsmen come with lots of character and non
standard controls like advance/retard lever, or heaven forbid the
throttle on the steering wheel.

Classic tends to refer to something a bit more modern than cars with an
advance retard lever?

Generally post WW2.

[AJH]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Peter Hill
1: Derek Mathewson on the TV show "Bangers and Cash" lamented that sales
of older vintage vehicles were in decline and "difficult". Most of these
being coachbuilt by craftsmen come with lots of character and non
standard controls like advance/retard lever, or heaven forbid the
throttle on the steering wheel.

Classic tends to refer to something a bit more modern than cars with an
advance retard lever?
Generally post WW2.

This is posted to a motorcycle group as well and motorcycles were
available with advance retard levers later. Fifty years ago I had a 1958
AJS 600 twin with one. It meant that once going you could toddle around
in top, 4th, all the time. Of course it also showed british bike
manufacturers didn't invest in modern manufacture.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by AJH

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Peter Hill
1: Derek Mathewson on the TV show "Bangers and Cash" lamented that sales
of older vintage vehicles were in decline and "difficult". Most of these
being coachbuilt by craftsmen come with lots of character and non
standard controls like advance/retard lever, or heaven forbid the
throttle on the steering wheel.

Classic tends to refer to something a bit more modern than cars with an
advance retard lever?
Generally post WW2.

This is posted to a motorcycle group as well and motorcycles were
available with advance retard levers later. Fifty years ago I had a 1958
AJS 600 twin with one. It meant that once going you could toddle around
in top, 4th, all the time. Of course it also showed british bike
manufacturers didn't invest in modern manufacture.

Trying to think of a coach built motorbike. Must be one somewhere. ;-)

But yes - no wonder the UK bike industry failed if they hadn't discovered
auto advance by then.

[AJH]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by AJH

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Peter Hill
1: Derek Mathewson on the TV show "Bangers and Cash" lamented that sales
of older vintage vehicles were in decline and "difficult". Most of these
being coachbuilt by craftsmen come with lots of character and non
standard controls like advance/retard lever, or heaven forbid the
throttle on the steering wheel.

Classic tends to refer to something a bit more modern than cars with an
advance retard lever?
Generally post WW2.

This is posted to a motorcycle group as well and motorcycles were
available with advance retard levers later. Fifty years ago I had a 1958
AJS 600 twin with one. It meant that once going you could toddle around
in top, 4th, all the time. Of course it also showed british bike
manufacturers didn't invest in modern manufacture.

Trying to think of a coach built motorbike. Must be one somewhere. ;-)
But yes - no wonder the UK bike industry failed if they hadn't discovered
auto advance by then.

There will have been British bike engines with centrifugal advance by
then but I cannot name any, my 1962 enfield 250 definitely did but many
bikes were basically running engines that had been produced before the
war with just a few tweaks. It wasn't as if the designers didn't know
better, Turner the chap that designed the pushrod triumph twin engines
used right up to the 70s had designed a double overhead camshaft engine
but it was never put into production because the investment wasn't
available.

[Mike Fleming]

Post by AJH
There will have been British bike engines with centrifugal advance by
then but I cannot name any, my 1962 enfield 250 definitely did but many
bikes were basically running engines that had been produced before the
war with just a few tweaks. It wasn't as if the designers didn't know
better, Turner the chap that designed the pushrod triumph twin engines
used right up to the 70s had designed a double overhead camshaft engine
but it was never put into production because the investment wasn't
available.

Turner's design for a DOHC 350 (the Triumph Bandit/BSA Fury) was
fatally flawed because he stuck with his 1930s design with a
vertically split crankcase with a crank supported only at the ends,
while Japanese manufacturers were coming up with horizontally split
crankcases with mains at the centre as well as each end. Turner's
design resulted in many broken crankshafts, which is why it never went
into production.

[AJH]

Post by Mike Fleming
Turner's design for a DOHC 350 (the Triumph Bandit/BSA Fury) was
fatally flawed because he stuck with his 1930s design with a
vertically split crankcase with a crank supported only at the ends,
while Japanese manufacturers were coming up with horizontally split
crankcases with mains at the centre as well as each end. Turner's
design resulted in many broken crankshafts, which is why it never went
into production.

Thanks for that; I was aware he designed it between the wars before he
went to Triumph but not that the same design was regurgitated for an
unsuccessful try in the 70s.

There were a number of engines from the period, presumably inspired by
aero engines like the merlin, the norton 500 springs to mind, yet they
didn't make it through to cooking bikes.

Nowadays even Ford transit diesels have DOHC yet I always thought the
main benefit came from being able to sustain higher RPM.

Also whilst the Norton was a successful design it wasn't carried through
to the twins and BSA's club racer retained pushrods in the goldstar,
which incidentally was the bike I aspired to own below the Venom, both
obsolescent designs even in the mid 60s.

As to investment in modernising; the 60s were a period of great optimism
and growth but we hadn't recovered from war or war debt, simultaneously
the cheap imports from empire had gone, this coupled with the the
structure of the companies and share holding meant the ethos of long
term investment was lost amid the "take the money and run" philosophy,
as pointed out by another poster.

I've no room to collect veteran or classic bikes but I would like one to
potter around with, I would not exchange my modern watercooled, electric
start, ABS disk braked Japanese bike for one as a sole ride though.

PS OP why post to URCM when we still have URCC?

[Peter Hill]

Post by AJH

Post by Mike Fleming
Turner's design for a DOHC 350 (the Triumph Bandit/BSA Fury) was
fatally flawed because he stuck with his 1930s design with a
vertically split crankcase with a crank supported only at the ends,
while Japanese manufacturers were coming up with horizontally split
crankcases with mains at the centre as well as each end. Turner's
design resulted in many broken crankshafts, which is why it never went
into production.

Wasn't just Triumph motorcycles that broke cranks. My dad had a Triumph
2000 that broke a crank running in.

Post by AJH
Thanks for that; I was aware he designed it between the wars before he
went to Triumph but not that the same design was regurgitated for an
unsuccessful try in the 70s.

It wasn't "regurgitated", sadly it was an advanced top end nailed to the
same old bottom end, cos "that's how we make em". His earliest 350 OHC
engine was gear train (like Honda VFR) and 2nd was shaft driven (like
Manx Norton). The 600cc Square Four was chain driven SOHC. The chain ran
in the space at the middle of the 4 cylinders from a half time shaft -
this made the top end sprocket the same size as the bottom one so was
quite compact but added cost of 1/2 time gear. Many DOHC car engines
from the 50's and 60's used a 1/2 time intermediate cam drive. Jaguar
and Alfa Romero being 2 that come to mind. The 350cc Bandit/fury was
DOHC. Like the Square Four it had a compact chain drive as it used a
gear driven 1/2 time shaft to drive the lower sprocket. The rear cam was
driven off the front by a short chain, yet more expense with 2 extra
sprockets. Something Porsche were to do in the late 80's on 4 valve
heads used on 944/968 and 928 with the added innovation of a moveable
guide/tensioner that changed the inlet cam timing.

Post by AJH
There were a number of engines from the period, presumably inspired by
aero engines like the merlin, the norton 500 springs to mind, yet  they
didn't make it through to cooking bikes.

Manx Norton's shaft driven DOHC was horrendously expensive due to the 2
pairs of bevel gears and a gear train. It was also very expensive to set
up with vernier gear and shimming of the bevel gears.
Postwar AJS 7R / Matchless G50 SOHC had a much cheaper chain drive.

Post by AJH
Nowadays even Ford transit diesels have DOHC  yet I always thought the
main benefit came from being able to sustain higher RPM.

Accuracy of valve timing and removing need for service adjustment.
Bucket and shim tappets have check intervals around 60K miles. Hydraulic
don't need adjustment. Once you have a screw and locknut, adjustment
becomes a regular service event. Fleet buyers are very willing to pay
more up front to reduce lifetime costs and unlike individuals have some
ability to fully cost this for higher mileage vehicles 3 years 60K miles.

Post by AJH
Also whilst the Norton was a successful design it wasn't carried through
to the twins  and BSA's club racer retained pushrods in the goldstar,
which incidentally was the bike I aspired to own  below the Venom, both
obsolescent designs even in the mid 60s.

BSA made the DOHC MC1 in 1954. Aborted before racing.
https://www.motorcycleclassics.com/classic-british-motorcycles/bsa-mc1-250-racer-zmcz12ndzbea

And the 1966 Titanium frame motocrosser. If it cracked the frame it
couldn't be repaired at the track as it needed to be welded in a chamber
filled with argon and they did crack. Chrome bore.
https://www.motorsportretro.com/2010/10/english-beat-the-story-of-the-500cc-titanium-bsa/

Post by AJH
As to investment in modernising; the 60s were a period of great optimism
and growth but we hadn't recovered from war or war debt, simultaneously
the cheap imports from empire had gone, this coupled with the the
structure of the companies and share holding  meant the ethos of long
term investment was lost amid the  "take the money and run" philosophy,
as pointed out by another poster.
I've no room to collect veteran or classic bikes but I would like one to
potter around with, I would not exchange my modern watercooled, electric
start, ABS disk braked Japanese bike for one  as a sole ride though.

There was a story that BSA did some research on introducing an OHC motor
for sale to the public. They found that owners "liked" to do a de-coke
on Saturday before a Sunday blast to the coast. It was deemed that OHC
would make the task of a decoke too difficult for the owner and they
wouldn't buy.

Can't recall anyone ever telling me they were going to do a decoke on a
Jap OHC bike. But they were all alloy head and barrel, many of the
British bikes were cast iron.

There was another story that Norton went to great expense to forge twin
cylinder cranks in one piece. They were fully machined and then parted
to split the left and right hand parts so they could be bolted to the
central flywheel. The left hand crank half was put a box with all the
other left hand cranks, the right in a box with all the right hand
cranks, never the twain to meet again. Which is why they couldn't align
the cranks and needed "Superblend" bearings on the Commando.

Post by AJH
PS OP why post to URCM when we still have URCC?

URCC is as good as dead. One thread with 3 posts this year,

[AJH]

Post by Peter Hill
URCC is as good as dead. One thread with 3 posts this year

Usenet is as good as dead but we still read and post, one more thread
may have livened it up for a while.

Thanks for the input about the only bit I knew was that the G50 and 7R
had chain drive

[Andrew]

Post by Peter Hill
Wasn't just Triumph motorcycles that broke cranks. My dad had a Triumph
2000 that broke a crank running in.

My uncles 1956 Mk 1 diesel landrover broke its crank too.
Quite common I believe.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by AJH
Nowadays even Ford transit diesels have DOHC yet I always thought the
main benefit came from being able to sustain higher RPM.

OHC reduces wear on the camshaft - not as much mass to move as pushrods
and rockers. Giving a longer life of the valve timing still being within
spec. And engine with a worn cam may well still run, but emissions etc no
longer in spec.

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by AJH
This is posted to a motorcycle group as well and motorcycles were
available with advance retard levers later. Fifty years ago I had a 1958
AJS 600 twin with one. It meant that once going you could toddle around
in top, 4th, all the time. Of course it also showed british bike
manufacturers didn't invest in modern manufacture.

Can you honestly blame them? Labour relations during that period and
directly after were fractious and for many, many manufacturers it
seemed like nationalisation was just a matter of months away at most.
Given those circumstances, who in their right mind would wish to
invest in modern plant? It made far more sense to just get the hell
out, sell up and spunk the money on good living.
The unions bled all the investment out of the British car and
motorcycle manufacturing industries with their ruinous demands. That's
what happens when Leftist dogma triumphs over reason.

[Mike Fleming]

Post by Cursitor Doom
The unions bled all the investment out of the British car and
motorcycle manufacturing industries with their ruinous demands. That's
what happens when Leftist dogma triumphs over reason.

Triumph asked for £3M from Thatcher's government to modernise and
improve the factory. Turned down. Renault, 50% owned by the French
state, asked for £182M and it was given to them. Now, come up with
some more shit about Leftist dogma. Fucking Tory cretin.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Mike Fleming

Post by Cursitor Doom
The unions bled all the investment out of the British car and
motorcycle manufacturing industries with their ruinous demands. That's
what happens when Leftist dogma triumphs over reason.

Triumph asked for £3M from Thatcher's government to modernise and
improve the factory. Turned down. Renault, 50% owned by the French
state, asked for £182M and it was given to them. Now, come up with
some more shit about Leftist dogma. Fucking Tory cretin.

No point in arguing with our patriotic Tory ex-pat. He just knows he is
right.

Perhaps he'd like to say why Germany still has a very successful car
industry despite trade unions and the higher pay they've achieved for the
workforce there. But I'll not hold my breath.

[Andrew]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Mike Fleming

Post by Cursitor Doom
The unions bled all the investment out of the British car and
motorcycle manufacturing industries with their ruinous demands. That's
what happens when Leftist dogma triumphs over reason.

Triumph asked for £3M from Thatcher's government to modernise and
improve the factory. Turned down. Renault, 50% owned by the French
state, asked for £182M and it was given to them. Now, come up with
some more shit about Leftist dogma. Fucking Tory cretin.

No point in arguing with our patriotic Tory ex-pat. He just knows he is
right.
Perhaps he'd like to say why Germany still has a very successful car
industry despite trade unions and the higher pay they've achieved for the
workforce there. But I'll not hold my breath.

Total absence of wildcat strikes perhaps ?, plus the Germans
well-known pathological inability to do a bad job, unlike people
in the UK.

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 11:34:06 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Mike Fleming

Post by Cursitor Doom
The unions bled all the investment out of the British car and
motorcycle manufacturing industries with their ruinous demands. That's
what happens when Leftist dogma triumphs over reason.

Triumph asked for £3M from Thatcher's government to modernise and
improve the factory. Turned down. Renault, 50% owned by the French
state, asked for £182M and it was given to them. Now, come up with
some more shit about Leftist dogma. Fucking Tory cretin.

No point in arguing with our patriotic Tory ex-pat. He just knows he is
right.
Perhaps he'd like to say why Germany still has a very successful car
industry despite trade unions and the higher pay they've achieved for the
workforce there. But I'll not hold my breath.

Easy peasy. The German trades unions were never infested with
Trotskyite, revolutionary filth hell-bent on destroying the country
like Britain's were back then, that's why.

[Mike Fleming]

Post by AJH

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Peter Hill
1: Derek Mathewson on the TV show "Bangers and Cash" lamented that sales
of older vintage vehicles were in decline and "difficult". Most of these
being coachbuilt by craftsmen come with lots of character and non
standard controls like advance/retard lever, or heaven forbid the
throttle on the steering wheel.

Classic tends to refer to something a bit more modern than cars with an
advance retard lever?
Generally post WW2.

This is posted to a motorcycle group as well and motorcycles were
available with advance retard levers later. Fifty years ago I had a 1958
AJS 600 twin with one. It meant that once going you could toddle around
in top, 4th, all the time. Of course it also showed british bike
manufacturers didn't invest in modern manufacture.

Conversely, one change that many owners of 1950s British bikes was to
change the manual advance/retard lever to an automatic timing advance.