Incredibly stupid brake pipe flare

Post by Cursitor Doom
Gentlemen,
Does anyone know of a supplier for brake pipes such as these? (see
link). For some reason, some cretin decided it would be a great idea
to form a bulge about an inch from the end of the pipe, thus requiring
much greater seating depth and making correct placement and alignment
even more of a PITA than usual when attempting to fit brake pipes
between brake system components (and do-up the nut without x-threading
it).
Thanks, CD.
https://disk.yandex.com/i/haa_C5L1mPUKqA

Sorry, I can’t help but I am curious.

I’ve never seem that kind of fitting. Is there a make / brand ? Or every
the make of car?

Cursitor Doom

2022-03-19 13:58:41 UTC

Sorry, I cant help but I am curious.
Ive never seem that kind of fitting. Is there a make / brand ? Or every
the make of car?

As Dave P has no doubt worked out already, this is another Roller
(Silver Spirit). I'm just wondering if they've used Citroen pattern
pipes in this instance, as they did buy a lot of Citroen hydraulic
technology for incorporation into the RR fleet. Daft decision if you
ask me. Jaguar were able to do all this, with a superior ride
quality/standard of refinement IMO, without all this complex hyraulic
BS.

Cursitor Doom

2022-03-19 14:10:10 UTC

Post by Cursitor Doom
As Dave P has no doubt worked out already, this is another Roller
(Silver Spirit). I'm just wondering if they've used Citroen pattern
pipes in this instance, as they did buy a lot of Citroen hydraulic
technology for incorporation into the RR fleet. Daft decision if you
ask me. Jaguar were able to do all this, with a superior ride
quality/standard of refinement IMO, without all this complex hyraulic
BS.

Please excuse me quoting myself. I just had a thought about the above
and tried searching for Citroen brake pipe bits. I think I may be on
to something....

https://www.burton2cvparts.com/brakes/brake-lines/brake-pipe-rubber-3-5-mm-lhm

Who'd have thought a Spirit would have anything safety-related in
common with a 2CV!!?

Dave Plowman (News)

2022-03-19 15:13:58 UTC

Sorry, I cant help but I am curious.
Ive never seem that kind of fitting. Is there a make / brand ? Or every
the make of car?

It does look like a union designed for higher pressure than a 'normal'
brake union.

AutoMec make and sell brake pipe kits for various cars in either copper or
kunifer. I'd contact them, as they likely have the correct flaring tool.

--
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Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Cursitor Doom

2022-03-19 15:22:51 UTC

On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 15:13:58 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"

Sorry, I cant help but I am curious.
Ive never seem that kind of fitting. Is there a make / brand ? Or every
the make of car?

It does look like a union designed for higher pressure than a 'normal'
brake union.
AutoMec make and sell brake pipe kits for various cars in either copper or
kunifer. I'd contact them, as they likely have the correct flaring tool.

I'll give 'em a try Dave, thanks.
I'm not sure about a flaring tool, though. I'd have thought the only
way to form a bulge like that is through forcing hydraulic fluid into
the pipe with a concave bulge in a surrounding die. That would require
a setup a bit more involved than a typical flaring tool.

Brian

2022-03-19 17:12:04 UTC

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 15:13:58 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"

Sorry, I cant help but I am curious.
Ive never seem that kind of fitting. Is there a make / brand ? Or every
the make of car?

It does look like a union designed for higher pressure than a 'normal'
brake union.
AutoMec make and sell brake pipe kits for various cars in either copper or
kunifer. I'd contact them, as they likely have the correct flaring tool.

You would need to seal both ends of the pipe and prevent the whole length
deforming using that method- otherwise you could get a bulge anywhere.

Some kind of clamp which holds the pipe behind where the bulge will be but
has a bulge form in it. A second part forces the pipe on the free end back,
against the held section. The outer form stops the end flaring but the pipe
can go back into the bulge area.

A second operation may be require to finish the end.

As I recall, when making ordinary brake pipes by hand, one of the flares
needs two steps. I’ve not made one for decades but still have a Sykes and
Pickavant tool in the garage. I should put it on EBay.

Dave Plowman (News)

2022-03-20 14:10:28 UTC

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 15:13:58 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"

Sorry, I cant help but I am curious.
Ive never seem that kind of fitting. Is there a make / brand ? Or every
the make of car?

It does look like a union designed for higher pressure than a 'normal'
brake union.
AutoMec make and sell brake pipe kits for various cars in either copper or
kunifer. I'd contact them, as they likely have the correct flaring tool.

Only a guess, but if a rod went down the inside, and the pipe is clamped
onto that rod, you could push the end to form that flare inside a former.

--
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Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Brian

2022-03-19 17:06:26 UTC

Sorry, I cant help but I am curious.
Ive never seem that kind of fitting. Is there a make / brand ? Or every
the make of car?

Thank you.

I’ve never worked on either a RR or a Citroen.

I confess, I had considered buying a classic RR but I had a lay down under
I got over the urge. Nice to have etc but ….

;-)

Dave Plowman (News)

2022-03-20 14:13:42 UTC

Ive never worked on either a RR or a Citroen.
I confess, I had considered buying a classic RR but I had a lay down under
I got over the urge. Nice to have etc but .

I ran an S1 Bentley for several years. Apart from things being obviously
heavy on such a large car, it was pretty DIY friendly. I even re-lined the
brake shoes myself. Given the costs of new shoes.

Unlike many other cars, many things did seem to be designed to be fixed,
rather than just replaced.

--
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Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Cursitor Doom

2022-03-20 17:32:06 UTC

On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 14:13:42 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"

Ive never worked on either a RR or a Citroen.
I confess, I had considered buying a classic RR but I had a lay down under
I got over the urge. Nice to have etc but .

I ran an S1 Bentley for several years. Apart from things being obviously
heavy on such a large car, it was pretty DIY friendly. I even re-lined the
brake shoes myself. Given the costs of new shoes.

What was the ride like? I'd often thought about getting a S1 Cloud -
before they went to that stupid V8 engine etc in the later variants.
But I like a soft ride and Bentley don't really do that. Well ,so they
say.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Unlike many other cars, many things did seem to be designed to be fixed,
rather than just replaced.

That wasn't just Bentleys; it was the norm in pretty much all cars
back then.

Dave Plowman (News)

2022-03-21 16:55:59 UTC

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I ran an S1 Bentley for several years. Apart from things being obviously
heavy on such a large car, it was pretty DIY friendly. I even re-lined the
brake shoes myself. Given the costs of new shoes.

Ride was pretty good even for a live rear axle car. But in main because of
the large crossply tyres. Which had a short life. Radials ruin the ride -
same as on early Shadows. The 6 cylinder was silky smooth, but a tendency
to eat exhaust valves if driven hard. The V8 isn't as smooth at idle, but
pretty bomb proof.

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Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Cursitor Doom

2022-03-22 18:18:02 UTC

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:55:59 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"

I would still take a straight six any day of the week. If that Bentley
lump blew up, the obvious thing to do would be to install a Jag 4.2
XKE engine in its place and just weld the Bentley rocker covers over
the Jag ones.Sorted. ;-)

Dave Plowman (News)

2022-03-23 14:26:58 UTC

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:55:59 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"

You've obviously not driven an S1 Bentley. The overhead inlet, side
exhaust 4.9 litre low comression engine produced enormous torque just
above idle. Totally different concept from the XK engine.

--
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Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Abandoned_Trolley

2022-03-23 15:10:39 UTC

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
You've obviously not driven an S1 Bentley. The overhead inlet, side
exhaust 4.9 litre low comression engine produced enormous torque just
above idle. Totally different concept from the XK engine.

Maybe a totally different concept - and from a different era, but ...

Most engines were low compression out of necessity, because of the low
grade "pool" petrol available.

Also, I was told some years ago that at one time, vehicle tax
calculations were dependent on "piston surface area" - which (in the
days of flat top pistons) I suppose means the bore.

If thats true, then engine designers may have been guided down the road
of "overstroking" as a means of buying some displacement, and the side
effects of increased gas velocity and torque would have been welcome.

For comparison purposes, the original 3.4 XK clocks in at 1.27:1 stroke
/ bore and the Bentley is 1.2:1

Theres doubtless a load of other variables in the equation too - for
example there may have been little incentive to produce high revving
oversquare engines without suitable valve springs to keep them going.

--
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Dave Plowman (News)

2022-03-23 16:10:45 UTC

Maybe a totally different concept - and from a different era, but ...
Most engines were low compression out of necessity, because of the low
grade "pool" petrol available.

The S1 engine was basically a development of a pre-war design. But the
days of 'pool' petrol were long over when it came out. 5 Star was
available during its production run.

Post by Abandoned_Trolley
Also, I was told some years ago that at one time, vehicle tax
calculations were dependent on "piston surface area" - which (in the
days of flat top pistons) I suppose means the bore.

The old RAC HP rating. Although I doubt Bentley owners were too concerned
about taxation. And the Ford 105E was introduced during the S1 production
run.

Post by Abandoned_Trolley
If thats true, then engine designers may have been guided down the road
of "overstroking" as a means of buying some displacement, and the side
effects of increased gas velocity and torque would have been welcome.
For comparison purposes, the original 3.4 XK clocks in at 1.27:1 stroke
/ bore and the Bentley is 1.2:1
Theres doubtless a load of other variables in the equation too - for
example there may have been little incentive to produce high revving
oversquare engines without suitable valve springs to keep them going.

The S1 engine would idle reliably at 175 rpm. Peak revs only about 4000.
Very restful way of proceeding. ;-) It wasn't actually that thirsty
either. My early XJ6 LWB 4.2 auto got the prize as the thirstiest car I've
ever owned.

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Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Abandoned_Trolley

2022-03-23 21:01:06 UTC

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And the Ford 105E was introduced during the S1 production
run.

I dont understand the relevance of that at all.

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Dave Plowman (News)

2022-03-24 15:02:34 UTC

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And the Ford 105E was introduced during the S1 production
run.

I dont understand the relevance of that at all.

A very over square engine. Which were the fashion for a while. But
emission control caused a revert to longer stroke designs.

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Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Abandoned_Trolley

2022-03-24 16:16:34 UTC

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And the Ford 105E was introduced during the S1 production
run.

I dont understand the relevance of that at all.

A very over square engine. Which were the fashion for a while. But
emission control caused a revert to longer stroke designs.

Jaguar production V12 motors were also very over square (70x90) but
obviously managaed to comply with US emission standards.

The later 6 litre models were even more oversquare.

All other things being equal, I have no idea what impact the bore:stroke
ratio has on emissions.

--
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Dave Plowman (News)

2022-03-24 18:43:09 UTC

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And the Ford 105E was introduced during the S1 production
run.

I dont understand the relevance of that at all.

A very over square engine. Which were the fashion for a while. But
emission control caused a revert to longer stroke designs.

Jaguar production V12 motors were also very over square (70x90) but
obviously managaed to comply with US emission standards.

The 105E was 48 x 81. Very oversquare.

Post by Abandoned_Trolley
The later 6 litre models were even more oversquare.
All other things being equal, I have no idea what impact the bore:stroke
ratio has on emissions.

Oversquare allowed bigger valves. But with 4 valve heads you can get the
same area with a smaller bore.

The current fashion (BMW etc) is for just slightly oversquare units.

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Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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newshound

2022-03-23 21:07:22 UTC

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
The S1 engine would idle reliably at 175 rpm. Peak revs only about 4000.
Very restful way of proceeding. ;-) It wasn't actually that thirsty
either. My early XJ6 LWB 4.2 auto got the prize as the thirstiest car I've
ever owned.

Your posts prompted me to look up S1s. Honest John is listing several
for sale, between £19k and £490k.

Dave Plowman (News)

2022-03-24 15:06:36 UTC

Post by newshound

Your posts prompted me to look up S1s. Honest John is listing several
for sale, between £19k and £490k.

Quite a spread. A standard body one in pretty good nick would be 30k plus,
I'd say. Mint could be anything.

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Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Cursitor Doom

2022-03-27 16:34:44 UTC

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:07:22 +0000, newshound

Post by newshound

Your posts prompted me to look up S1s. Honest John is listing several
for sale, between £19k and £490k.

Anything over 100k needs to be coachbuilt to justify the additional
expense IMO. My preference is Mulliner. I just like that Art Deco
style bodyline design. I know a chap hereabouts with a couple of
Hooper-bodied Clouds, one owned by some hot-shot oil billionaire who
collected them. Hoopers are something else quality wise. They never
did anything on the cheap.

Brian

2022-03-21 20:12:47 UTC

Ive never worked on either a RR or a Citroen.
I confess, I had considered buying a classic RR but I had a lay down under
I got over the urge. Nice to have etc but .

I ran an S1 Bentley for several years. Apart from things being obviously
heavy on such a large car, it was pretty DIY friendly. I even re-lined the
brake shoes myself. Given the costs of new shoes.
Unlike many other cars, many things did seem to be designed to be fixed,
rather than just replaced.

I know several people who own older Bentleys, Rolls Royces, etc and, like
you find them fun, even easy to maintain. Since my stroke, I only do basic
things. I certainly avoid anything involving heavy work under cars.

Cursitor Doom

2022-03-22 18:14:07 UTC

Post by Brian