Engine Oil 'Life'

[Brian Reay]

When I got my first car- in about 1980- the norm was to change engine
oil every 6 mths / 5k or 6k miles.

Gradually it increased to 12mths / 10k or 12k miles (sometimes 9k), even
before synthetic oils were the norm.

With the (I think) universal use of synthetic oils in modern cars, I
doubt any are more frequent that 12mths / 10/12k miles or so.

However, some are 2 years - eg the Fiat Ducato. (I can't recall the
mileage but I think it is 24k). It does specify a 'special' oil but I
suspect it is 'just' a low ash synthetic with a few additives.

This seems like sacrilege to me yet, I understand, some cars in the US
are even longer- even 100k miles!

We looked at the Tesla 4x4, admittedly all electric, and were told it
required NO regular maintenance. No oil anywhere required changing or
even checking, although it was recommended, for the life of the car.

Has technology really advanced that far?

[alan_m]

Post by Brian Reay
When I got my first car- in about 1980- the norm was to change engine
oil every 6 mths / 5k or 6k miles.
Gradually it increased to 12mths / 10k or 12k miles (sometimes 9k), even
before synthetic oils were the norm.
With the (I think) universal use of synthetic oils in modern cars, I
doubt any are more frequent that 12mths / 10/12k miles or so.
However, some are 2 years - eg the Fiat Ducato. (I can't recall the
mileage but I think it is 24k). It does specify a 'special' oil but I
suspect it is 'just' a low ash synthetic with a few additives.
This seems like sacrilege to me yet, I understand, some cars in the US
are even longer- even 100k miles!
We looked at the Tesla 4x4, admittedly all electric, and were told it
required NO regular maintenance. No oil anywhere required changing or
even checking, although it was recommended, for the life of the car.
Has technology really advanced that far?

It's just oil associated with combustion products that require changing.

Oil in the gearbox/diff have been "sealed for life" in the UK for some
considerable time.

[Brian Reay]

Post by alan_m

Post by Brian Reay
When I got my first car- in about 1980- the norm was to change engine
oil every 6 mths / 5k or 6k miles.
Gradually it increased to 12mths / 10k or 12k miles (sometimes 9k),
even before synthetic oils were the norm.
With the (I think) universal use of synthetic oils in modern cars, I
doubt any are more frequent that 12mths / 10/12k miles or so.
However, some are 2 years - eg the Fiat Ducato. (I can't recall the
mileage but I think it is 24k). It does specify a 'special' oil but I
suspect it is 'just' a low ash synthetic with a few additives.
This seems like sacrilege to me yet, I understand, some cars in the US
are even longer- even 100k miles!
We looked at the Tesla 4x4, admittedly all electric, and were told it
required NO regular maintenance. No oil anywhere required changing or
even checking, although it was recommended, for the life of the car.
Has technology really advanced that far?

It's just oil associated with combustion products that require changing.
Oil in the gearbox/diff have been "sealed for life" in the UK for some
considerable time.

Good point, I'd forgotten about that- it explains the Tesla example.

[newshound]

Post by alan_m

Post by Brian Reay
When I got my first car- in about 1980- the norm was to change engine
oil every 6 mths / 5k or 6k miles.
Gradually it increased to 12mths / 10k or 12k miles (sometimes 9k),
even before synthetic oils were the norm.
With the (I think) universal use of synthetic oils in modern cars, I
doubt any are more frequent that 12mths / 10/12k miles or so.
However, some are 2 years - eg the Fiat Ducato. (I can't recall the
mileage but I think it is 24k). It does specify a 'special' oil but I
suspect it is 'just' a low ash synthetic with a few additives.
This seems like sacrilege to me yet, I understand, some cars in the US
are even longer- even 100k miles!
We looked at the Tesla 4x4, admittedly all electric, and were told it
required NO regular maintenance. No oil anywhere required changing or
even checking, although it was recommended, for the life of the car.
Has technology really advanced that far?

It's just oil associated with combustion products that require changing.
Oil in the gearbox/diff have been "sealed for life" in the UK for some
considerable time.

But not 50 years ago, when I started maintaining cars and bikes. The oil
technology has improved, but also the manufacturing technology. Plateau
honing is the reason we hardly ever hear of rebores these days (ok
motorways help). I suspect that in gearboxes, surface finishes are much
better and gears don't shed "bits" when first run, like they used to.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Brian Reay
When I got my first car- in about 1980- the norm was to change engine
oil every 6 mths / 5k or 6k miles.
Gradually it increased to 12mths / 10k or 12k miles (sometimes 9k), even
before synthetic oils were the norm.
With the (I think) universal use of synthetic oils in modern cars, I
doubt any are more frequent that 12mths / 10/12k miles or so.
However, some are 2 years - eg the Fiat Ducato. (I can't recall the
mileage but I think it is 24k). It does specify a 'special' oil but I
suspect it is 'just' a low ash synthetic with a few additives.
This seems like sacrilege to me yet, I understand, some cars in the US
are even longer- even 100k miles!

If you remember 5k oil changes, you'll also remember pretty well all car
makers did good business selling reconditioned engines too. The famous BMC
Gold Seal units, etc. Which many garages carried in stock.

Try asking your local main agent if they stock exchange engines. ;-)

[Brian Reay]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Brian Reay
When I got my first car- in about 1980- the norm was to change engine
oil every 6 mths / 5k or 6k miles.
Gradually it increased to 12mths / 10k or 12k miles (sometimes 9k), even
before synthetic oils were the norm.
With the (I think) universal use of synthetic oils in modern cars, I
doubt any are more frequent that 12mths / 10/12k miles or so.
However, some are 2 years - eg the Fiat Ducato. (I can't recall the
mileage but I think it is 24k). It does specify a 'special' oil but I
suspect it is 'just' a low ash synthetic with a few additives.
This seems like sacrilege to me yet, I understand, some cars in the US
are even longer- even 100k miles!

If you remember 5k oil changes, you'll also remember pretty well all car
makers did good business selling reconditioned engines too. The famous BMC
Gold Seal units, etc. Which many garages carried in stock.
Try asking your local main agent if they stock exchange engines. ;-)

True but that doesn’t explain things directly, quite the converse.

True, if you allow for the interplay of several factors then you can
explain it but not in the way you hint.

Likewise, you used to ‘run engines in’, some of us still do, at least to an
extent, but modern cars don’t come with the detailed instructions cars once
did re running in.

I appreciate improvements in manufacturing techniques etc all play a part,
plus oil technology etc. It just still seems unnatural not to change engine
oil ( and filter) for 2 years and the corresponding mileage (although in
our case the mileage won’t be that high, motorhomes tend not to do high
mileages even the ones which are well used- we’ve done about 4.5k in 12mths
over 7 trips, 3mth away).

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Brian Reay
When I got my first car- in about 1980- the norm was to change engine
oil every 6 mths / 5k or 6k miles.
Gradually it increased to 12mths / 10k or 12k miles (sometimes 9k),
even before synthetic oils were the norm.
With the (I think) universal use of synthetic oils in modern cars, I
doubt any are more frequent that 12mths / 10/12k miles or so.
However, some are 2 years - eg the Fiat Ducato. (I can't recall the
mileage but I think it is 24k). It does specify a 'special' oil but I
suspect it is 'just' a low ash synthetic with a few additives.
This seems like sacrilege to me yet, I understand, some cars in the
US are even lOnger- even 100k miles!

If you remember 5k oil changes, you'll also remember pretty well all
car makers did good business selling reconditioned engines too. The
famous BMC Gold Seal units, etc. Which many garages carried in stock.
Try asking your local main agent if they stock exchange engines. ;-)

True but that doesn‘t explain things directly, quite the converse.
True, if you allow for the interplay of several factors then you can
explain it but not in the way you hint.

I didn't hint at the reasons. ;-)

Likewise, you used to run engines in‘, some of us still do, at least to
an extent, but modern cars dOn‘t come with the detailed instructions
cars once did re running in.

Running in is required due to less than ideal finishing of bearing etc
surfaces. If you ever saw a freshly re-bored cylinder in those days. These
days many cylinders are aluminium with a coating on that. If that coating
gets damaged, repair may be uneconomic. As with everything else, machine
tools can be dramatically more accurate these days.

I appreciate improvements in manufacturing techniques etc all play a
part, plus oil technology etc. It just still seems unnatural not to
change engine oil ( and filter) for 2 years and the correspOnding
mileage (although in our case the mileage wOn‘t be that high, motorhomes
tend not to do high mileages even the Ones which are well used- we‘ve
dOne about 4.5k in 12mths over 7 trips, 3mth away).

Large engines - as found on ships etc - don't have routine oil changes.
The oil is analysed and brought back to spec with the necessary additives.

Those of us of a certain age are simply conditioned into thinking oil has
a certain life.

[alan_m]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Those of us of a certain age are simply conditioned into thinking oil has
a certain life.

In the USA they seem to have a common belief that the oil must be
changed on every trip to the bottom of the road, or at least every 3k to
5k miles!

[Theo]

Post by alan_m

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Those of us of a certain age are simply conditioned into thinking oil has
a certain life.

In the USA they seem to have a common belief that the oil must be
changed on every trip to the bottom of the road, or at least every 3k to
5k miles!

Unsurprising when
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiffy_Lube
are owned by an oil company and recommend changing every 3k...

Theo

[Steve H]

Post by Theo

Post by alan_m
In the USA they seem to have a common belief that the oil must be
changed on every trip to the bottom of the road, or at least every 3k to
5k miles!

Unsurprising when
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiffy_Lube
are owned by an oil company and recommend changing every 3k...

Did you not read the bit where they're moving away from 3k
recommendations?

The oil company in question invests a lot of money into extending the
life of oils, too...

I'd say the American model is very much down to their hugely inefficient
engines which I'd quess contaminate oils very quickly as they don't burn
fuel anywhere near as efficiently as the rest of the world.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Steve H
I'd say the American model is very much down to their hugely inefficient
engines which I'd quess contaminate oils very quickly as they don't burn
fuel anywhere near as efficiently as the rest of the world.

Think you're going back a few decades... ;-)

But even then, my SD1 has a US designed engine from the 60s. Oil changes
every year or 10,000 miles, so no different from UK engines of the time.
And it is also pretty decent MPG wise compared to similar sized UK
designs.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by alan_m

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Those of us of a certain age are simply conditioned into thinking oil has
a certain life.

In the USA they seem to have a common belief that the oil must be
changed on every trip to the bottom of the road, or at least every 3k to
5k miles!

Yup. And often when they don't keep a car long enough to know for sure it
has made it last longer.

[newshound]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Large engines - as found on ships etc - don't have routine oil changes.
The oil is analysed and brought back to spec with the necessary additives.

Good point. Since 1960 the maintenance procedures for power station
steam turbines and other large rotating plant discuss "spiking" with
additives if analysis shows a fall in properties (typically anti
corrosion or anti foam). But I can't recall a single instance. I was
involved in an oil change once because of a biological infection in the
oil.

[Peter Hill]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Brian Reay
When I got my first car- in about 1980- the norm was to change engine
oil every 6 mths / 5k or 6k miles.
Gradually it increased to 12mths / 10k or 12k miles (sometimes 9k), even
before synthetic oils were the norm.
With the (I think) universal use of synthetic oils in modern cars, I
doubt any are more frequent that 12mths / 10/12k miles or so.
However, some are 2 years - eg the Fiat Ducato. (I can't recall the
mileage but I think it is 24k). It does specify a 'special' oil but I
suspect it is 'just' a low ash synthetic with a few additives.
This seems like sacrilege to me yet, I understand, some cars in the US
are even longer- even 100k miles!

If you remember 5k oil changes, you'll also remember pretty well all car
makers did good business selling reconditioned engines too. The famous BMC
Gold Seal units, etc. Which many garages carried in stock.
Try asking your local main agent if they stock exchange engines. ;-)

Before that .... in the 70's my dad told me that his dad ...

1950's Ford Pop side valve needed an annual de-coke. It was cheaper to
fit a new short engine £12 in the crate. In and out the workshop in a day.

Late 60's dad had a Triumph 2000, snapped the crank while running in.

By the 70's Ford were making the OHC Pinto, fitted in Cortina and Capri.
Cam and rockers needed replacing at 50K miles as the oil jets in the
spray bar blocked up. It was so common that motor factors had the full
kit of parts hanging on the wall behind the counter in a blister pack.

Go back to the 30's, inline 4 cylinder cranks lacked balance webs. Due
to crank flex, they all could suddenly and inexplicably wear out the
mains and this is why so many people held some notion that high revs
destroys engines and that slow revving long stoke engines are "better".
(A polish tractor maker is still making "bent stick" cranks and yes they
break, most people with any sense buy the version with a CAT engine.)

The 1970's OHC Datsun L series engine in the Bluebird that did 100K
miles with 'just servicing' was a revelation and made everyone else up
their game. It's origin was a Mercedes inline 6 but "improved", to the
point that the licence fee was no longer payable. The Merc was a high
cost luxury car in the UK and reliability was expected with the price
while the Datsun was competitive with Fords. So don't pray to God for a
Mercedes, pray for something better in a chassis that doesn't rot...

[Theo]

Post by Brian Reay
We looked at the Tesla 4x4, admittedly all electric, and were told it
required NO regular maintenance. No oil anywhere required changing or
even checking, although it was recommended, for the life of the car.

There's no engine oil, but there are fluids - screenwash, brake, a/c gas,
battery coolant. Plus tyres still wear out.

They don't need changing on an annual basis, so there's no 'annual service'
which is primarily driven by the need for an engine oil change and then 101
other things added in to justify it (changing key fob batteries and greasing
door hinges, and 57 varieties of 'checks' than just involve glancing at
things).

Basically things just need doing as and when, not on an annual interval.
But I'm not sure the costs are a lot lower as a result.

Theo

[MrCheerful]

Post by Theo

Post by Brian Reay
We looked at the Tesla 4x4, admittedly all electric, and were told it
required NO regular maintenance. No oil anywhere required changing or
even checking, although it was recommended, for the life of the car.

There's no engine oil, but there are fluids - screenwash, brake, a/c gas,
battery coolant. Plus tyres still wear out.
They don't need changing on an annual basis, so there's no 'annual service'
which is primarily driven by the need for an engine oil change and then 101
other things added in to justify it (changing key fob batteries and greasing
door hinges, and 57 varieties of 'checks' than just involve glancing at
things).
Basically things just need doing as and when, not on an annual interval.
But I'm not sure the costs are a lot lower as a result.
Theo

battery coolant is one of the things that is rather important.

[Theo]

Post by MrCheerful
battery coolant is one of the things that is rather important.

Indeed, however it's now a 'for life' item. Possibly needs doing after >10
years, but not on a regular basis.

Theo

[MrCheerful]

Post by Theo

Post by MrCheerful
battery coolant is one of the things that is rather important.

Indeed, however it's now a 'for life' item. Possibly needs doing after >10
years, but not on a regular basis.
Theo

ah, it WAS an annual service item (to replace the coolant) but as of
this year they have decided it is unnecessary, apparently the coolant
change was introducing dirt into the system, on new ones it invalidates
the warranty to open up the cooling system as an owner.

[newshound]

Post by MrCheerful

Post by MrCheerful
battery coolant is one of the things that is rather important.

Indeed, however it's now a 'for life' item.  Possibly needs doing
after >10
years, but not on a regular basis.
Theo

ah, it WAS an annual service item (to replace the coolant) but as of
this year they have decided it is unnecessary, apparently the coolant
change was introducing dirt into the system, on new ones it invalidates
the warranty to open up the cooling system as an owner.

You do mean primary coolant, don't you.

[MrCheerful]

Post by newshound

Post by MrCheerful

Post by MrCheerful
battery coolant is one of the things that is rather important.

Indeed, however it's now a 'for life' item.  Possibly needs doing
after >10
years, but not on a regular basis.
Theo

ah, it WAS an annual service item (to replace the coolant) but as of
this year they have decided it is unnecessary, apparently the coolant
change was introducing dirt into the system, on new ones it
invalidates the warranty to open up the cooling system as an owner.

You do mean primary coolant, don't you.

well as the battery is the primary (only) power source in a Tesla, then
you could call battery coolant the primary coolant, but people would not
understand.

[Brian Reay]

Post by MrCheerful

Post by newshound

Post by MrCheerful

Post by MrCheerful
battery coolant is one of the things that is rather important.

Indeed, however it's now a 'for life' item.  Possibly needs doing
after >10
years, but not on a regular basis.
Theo

ah, it WAS an annual service item (to replace the coolant) but as of
this year they have decided it is unnecessary, apparently the coolant
change was introducing dirt into the system, on new ones it
invalidates the warranty to open up the cooling system as an owner.

You do mean primary coolant, don't you.

well as the battery is the primary (only) power source in a Tesla, then
you could call battery coolant the primary coolant, but people would not
understand.

I was told the 'motor' (I suspect battery) coolant was the same kind as
used for the normal (Combustion) engine in our Outlander. Certainly when
you check it, it appears the same - nether it or the engine coolant have
needed topping up yet. (The two systems aren't shared.)

[Theo]

Post by Brian Reay
I was told the 'motor' (I suspect battery) coolant was the same kind as
used for the normal (Combustion) engine in our Outlander. Certainly when
you check it, it appears the same - nether it or the engine coolant have
needed topping up yet. (The two systems aren't shared.)

I think the coolant is regular antifreeze-based - the inverter coolant on
Toyota Hybrids is the same Super Long Life Coolant used in engine cooling.
Service manual says:

"Use either of the following:
- “Toyota Super Long Life Coolant”
- Similar high-quality ethylene glycol-based nonsilicate, non-amine,
non-nitrite, and non-borate coolant with long-life hybrid organic acid
technology"

which sounds like normal coolant on modern cars to me.

I'm not surprised that the cooling systems for the engine and battery on a
PHEV are separate though: 'cool' for the engine is 'damangingly hot' for
the battery. Although I could imagine a heat exchanger to warm up the
battery in cold climates, it's probably easier to have a little electric
heat.

Theo