Toyota losing the plot?

Post by Tim+
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Tim

There are those who hate automatic cars.

That said, it does seem to be adding something ( probably quite complex)
which can fail and serves no real function. Never a good idea.

Then, modern cars seem to be getting all kinds of gizmos. We bought an Aygo
in Oct ( well we collected then). It was a surprising number of things
which buzz and whirr - especially for a small runabout.

Oddly, it has complex things like lane departure warning, automatic
braking, ….. but no delay on the courtesy light.

Theo

2022-02-16 10:36:30 UTC

Post by Tim+
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars

Despite autos being commonplace in the US, there's a minority who yearn for
a 'stick shift'. Presumably this is a relatively cheap way to give them
what they want (a more engaged driving experience) without having to
re-engineer very much of the car. It can also be a feature you can
selectively enable - use auto for your commute to work, manual at a track
day.

You could imagine it being another feature that you select when ordering
your new car. And perhaps the parts might easily be swapped over, so you
could add this 'manual gearbox' to your existing car for a couple of hours
in the workshop.

It's not a meaningful performance feature, but then people pay good money
for having exhausts that sound a particular way and they aren't performance
features either.

Theo

Tim+

2022-02-16 12:49:35 UTC

Post by Tim+
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars

Despite autos being commonplace in the US, there's a minority who yearn for
a 'stick shift'. Presumably this is a relatively cheap way to give them
what they want (a more engaged driving experience) without having to
re-engineer very much of the car. It can also be a feature you can
selectively enable - use auto for your commute to work, manual at a track
day.
You could imagine it being another feature that you select when ordering
your new car. And perhaps the parts might easily be swapped over, so you
could add this 'manual gearbox' to your existing car for a couple of hours
in the workshop.
It's not a meaningful performance feature, but then people pay good money
for having exhausts that sound a particular way and they aren't performance
features either.
Theo

Unless it’s accompanied by a engine noise synthesiser it’s still not going
to sound anything like a manual gearbox car, all it’s going to do is roll
off the power in stages and require a “gear change” to restore the power.

I suspect it’ll never get further than a patent application.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Dave Plowman (News)

2022-02-16 15:49:33 UTC

Post by Tim+
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars

Despite autos being commonplace in the US, there's a minority who yearn for
a 'stick shift'. Presumably this is a relatively cheap way to give them
what they want (a more engaged driving experience) without having to
re-engineer very much of the car. It can also be a feature you can
selectively enable - use auto for your commute to work, manual at a track
day.
You could imagine it being another feature that you select when ordering
your new car. And perhaps the parts might easily be swapped over, so you
could add this 'manual gearbox' to your existing car for a couple of hours
in the workshop.
It's not a meaningful performance feature, but then people pay good money
for having exhausts that sound a particular way and they aren't performance
features either.

I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.

I've never heard of any auto that can be a true manual complete with
clutch pedal. Being able to select a gear manually on an auto is as old as
autos themselves.

--
*Don't byte off more than you can view *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Roger Mills

2022-02-16 17:48:48 UTC

Post by Tim+
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars

Despite autos being commonplace in the US, there's a minority who yearn for
a 'stick shift'. Presumably this is a relatively cheap way to give them
what they want (a more engaged driving experience) without having to
re-engineer very much of the car. It can also be a feature you can
selectively enable - use auto for your commute to work, manual at a track
day.
You could imagine it being another feature that you select when ordering
your new car. And perhaps the parts might easily be swapped over, so you
could add this 'manual gearbox' to your existing car for a couple of hours
in the workshop.
It's not a meaningful performance feature, but then people pay good money
for having exhausts that sound a particular way and they aren't performance
features either.

I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.
I've never heard of any auto that can be a true manual complete with
clutch pedal. Being able to select a gear manually on an auto is as old as
autos themselves.

I wonder whether it makes a simulated crunching noise if you engage a
gear without depressing the clutch fully.

--
Cheers,
Roger

Tim+

2022-02-16 17:53:37 UTC

Post by Tim+
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars

Despite autos being commonplace in the US, there's a minority who yearn for
a 'stick shift'. Presumably this is a relatively cheap way to give them
what they want (a more engaged driving experience) without having to
re-engineer very much of the car. It can also be a feature you can
selectively enable - use auto for your commute to work, manual at a track
day.
You could imagine it being another feature that you select when ordering
your new car. And perhaps the parts might easily be swapped over, so you
could add this 'manual gearbox' to your existing car for a couple of hours
in the workshop.
It's not a meaningful performance feature, but then people pay good money
for having exhausts that sound a particular way and they aren't performance
features either.

I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.
I've never heard of any auto that can be a true manual complete with
clutch pedal.

But it’s neither an auto or a manual. It’s a fixed gear with a cunning way
to cripple the power of the motor to simulate the poor power
characteristics of an ICE producing a “virtual gearbox”

It’s mind-bogglingly stupid.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Robin

2022-02-16 18:15:39 UTC

Post by Tim+

Post by Tim+
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars

Despite autos being commonplace in the US, there's a minority who yearn for
a 'stick shift'. Presumably this is a relatively cheap way to give them
what they want (a more engaged driving experience) without having to
re-engineer very much of the car. It can also be a feature you can
selectively enable - use auto for your commute to work, manual at a track
day.
You could imagine it being another feature that you select when ordering
your new car. And perhaps the parts might easily be swapped over, so you
could add this 'manual gearbox' to your existing car for a couple of hours
in the workshop.
It's not a meaningful performance feature, but then people pay good money
for having exhausts that sound a particular way and they aren't performance
features either.

I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.
I've never heard of any auto that can be a true manual complete with
clutch pedal.

I wondered about it being used to sell EVs: get potential customers to
drive a demonstrator with the simulated gearbox engaged; then drive it
without.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Theo

2022-02-17 21:54:01 UTC

Post by Tim+
But it’s neither an auto or a manual. It’s a fixed gear with a cunning way
to cripple the power of the motor to simulate the poor power
characteristics of an ICE producing a “virtual gearbox”
It’s mind-bogglingly stupid.

It's a video game. People pay good money for the video game experience even
though it's ultimately pointless. Making driving 'fun' like this (FSVO
'fun' that is in the eye of the beholder) does not make the drive any more
efficient, but if it isn't complicated to fit and people want to pay for it,
why not let them?

At this stage it's just an idea, maybe it will fly with the public and maybe
it won't. If it doesn't, they haven't lost very much.

After all, a lot of 'petrolhead' stuff (engine remapping, tuning, lowering,
fancy exhausts, etc) is equivalently pointless when getting from A to B.

Theo

Brian

2022-02-16 19:27:57 UTC

Post by Tim+
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars

Despite autos being commonplace in the US, there's a minority who yearn for
a 'stick shift'. Presumably this is a relatively cheap way to give them
what they want (a more engaged driving experience) without having to
re-engineer very much of the car. It can also be a feature you can
selectively enable - use auto for your commute to work, manual at a track
day.
You could imagine it being another feature that you select when ordering
your new car. And perhaps the parts might easily be swapped over, so you
could add this 'manual gearbox' to your existing car for a couple of hours
in the workshop.
It's not a meaningful performance feature, but then people pay good money
for having exhausts that sound a particular way and they aren't performance
features either.

I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.

I’m curious, which car was that?

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I've never heard of any auto that can be a true manual complete with
clutch pedal. Being able to select a gear manually on an auto is as old as
autos themselves.

Fiat made an “automatic” system ( note quotes) which was used on the Ducato
( maybe other vehicles). I believe it had a clutch * which was
electronically operated. I only ever saw bad things written about it, at
least in motorhomes. Fortunately I read them before buying a MH with one.

* a clutch much the same as a normal one - flywheel, clutch plate, clutch
cover/pressure plate, release bearing, etc. I assume an actuator operating
the lever on the release bearing.

Dave Plowman (News)

2022-02-17 15:28:41 UTC

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.

Im curious, which car was that?

Sorry, can't remember. Not really of much interest to me. Although I've
heard some complain about the way a CVT can stay at near constant engine
revs when accelerating. But whether this was after buying one an living
with it for a while, I dunno.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I've never heard of any auto that can be a true manual complete with
clutch pedal. Being able to select a gear manually on an auto is as
old as autos themselves.

Fiat made an automatic system ( note quotes) which was used on the
Ducato ( maybe other vehicles). I believe it had a clutch * which was
electronically operated. I only ever saw bad things written about it, at
least in motorhomes. Fortunately I read them before buying a MH with one.

Smiths made a similar system in the 1950s. Centrifugal clutch (for
starting off) which disengaged when you touched the gear lever to change
gear on the ordinary box. A mixture of electrics and vacuum servo
operation.

* a clutch much the same as a normal one - flywheel, clutch plate,
clutch cover/pressure plate, release bearing, etc. I assume an actuator
operating the lever on the release bearing.

The auto on my car is a twin clutch type. Sort of twin gearboxes 1,3,5 and
7 in one box, 2,4 and 6 in the other. Under normal acceleration from rest
it pre-selects the next gear and swaps the clutches to change gear. It
works beautifully in practice. And virtually as efficient as a manual box.

The only criticism is it's not quite so easy to maneuver when parking etc
due to the auto clutch.

--
*A snooze button is a poor substitute for no alarm clock at all *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Peter Hill

2022-02-18 14:25:27 UTC

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.

I‘m curious, which car was that?

They all do it and as far as I know none of them have a ludicrous mode
that Coulthard tested in Williams F1 car and instantly knocked several
seconds off his lap times.

Maximum acceleration is at maximum power. Peak torque corresponds to
peak acceleration in a fixed gear but the acceleration at peak power in
the gear below that is far higher.

So when you floor the accelerator pedal what should a CVT do? You have
sent a signal that you want everything it's got. It should give you
every thing it's got. That means winding the engine speed up to peak
power rpm and then continuously adjusting the gear ratio to hold it at
that speed.

A normal manual gearbox just gives you what the engine can deliver at
the current engine speed and you have to sit and wait for revs to rise
as the car accelerates and flatly farts. If you do this at 45 mph in top
gear you can be waiting a very long time for the car to get a move on.
If you want more you have to predict the need and change gear. Rule of
thumb if in doubt change down 2.

So there were 2 objections to CVT gearboxes.

First there was lag while the engine wound up to speed. The extra power
the engine made is initially used to speed up the engine and not the
car. The fact that with a normal gearbox you should be changing gear
during this time just isn't allowed for.

Second. Once wound up, the peak engine power is delivered to the wheels,
like all the hounds of hell let lose. It didn't change down 2 gears, it
went down 3.3. "Well I just wanted to go a little faster, I didn't want
Mach 2!". The only way to ask for "a little faster" is a smaller input
on the throttle, instead of mash it and lift off when you have enough.

So all CVT on the market pretend to be fixed ratio gear boxes. That
means the belt/chain/disc is always running on the same parts of the
cones/toroid. That makes tracks and the CVT fails. There's not supposed
to be any contact as the motion is transferred by a non Newtonian fluid
that becomes solid like silly putty when under shear loads.

Dave Plowman (News)

2022-02-18 16:38:40 UTC

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.

Im curious, which car was that?

They all do it and as far as I know none of them have a ludicrous mode
that Coulthard tested in Williams F1 car and instantly knocked several
seconds off his lap times.
Maximum acceleration is at maximum power. Peak torque corresponds to
peak acceleration in a fixed gear but the acceleration at peak power in
the gear below that is far higher.
So when you floor the accelerator pedal what should a CVT do? You have
sent a signal that you want everything it's got. It should give you
every thing it's got. That means winding the engine speed up to peak
power rpm and then continuously adjusting the gear ratio to hold it at
that speed.
A normal manual gearbox just gives you what the engine can deliver at
the current engine speed and you have to sit and wait for revs to rise
as the car accelerates and flatly farts. If you do this at 45 mph in top
gear you can be waiting a very long time for the car to get a move on.
If you want more you have to predict the need and change gear. Rule of
thumb if in doubt change down 2.
So there were 2 objections to CVT gearboxes.
First there was lag while the engine wound up to speed. The extra power
the engine made is initially used to speed up the engine and not the
car. The fact that with a normal gearbox you should be changing gear
during this time just isn't allowed for.
Second. Once wound up, the peak engine power is delivered to the wheels,
like all the hounds of hell let lose. It didn't change down 2 gears, it
went down 3.3. "Well I just wanted to go a little faster, I didn't want
Mach 2!". The only way to ask for "a little faster" is a smaller input
on the throttle, instead of mash it and lift off when you have enough.
So all CVT on the market pretend to be fixed ratio gear boxes. That
means the belt/chain/disc is always running on the same parts of the
cones/toroid. That makes tracks and the CVT fails. There's not supposed
to be any contact as the motion is transferred by a non Newtonian fluid
that becomes solid like silly putty when under shear loads.

The only CVT I've driven was an early DAF van. Not belonging to me, I'd
add. Noisy at the best of times. And incredibly wearing if attempting to
keep up with the traffic.

Are there any CVTs still available new? Do remember the Focus one had a
short life so much in demand as a used spare from a crashed car.

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long?

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Theo

2022-02-19 10:43:40 UTC

Post by Peter Hill
So all CVT on the market pretend to be fixed ratio gear boxes. That
means the belt/chain/disc is always running on the same parts of the
cones/toroid. That makes tracks and the CVT fails. There's not supposed
to be any contact as the motion is transferred by a non Newtonian fluid
that becomes solid like silly putty when under shear loads.

While there are paddles, I think the 2012-2019 Yaris CVT had a continuous
ratio if you didn't use them:
https://totallymotor.co.uk/test-drive-toyota-yaris-sr-1-33-cvt-auto/
From what I remember driving it there was no fake gear changing, but it was
a bit sluggish when you floored it. The hybrid version is much better.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Are there any CVTs still available new? Do remember the Focus one had a
short life so much in demand as a used spare from a crashed car.

Toyota I think have mostly switched to hybrids. The Aygo was a holdout of
the 'multi-mode transmission' - ie computer controlled manual, but the new
Aygo X mini-SUV does come with a CVT. I'm not sure they're shipping yet.

The Honda Jazz is now hybrid only. Nissan has the Xtronic on some Qashqai.

I think the market for CVTs is shrinking though - being nibbled away by
hybrids and EVs. Seems like it'll become more niche, perhaps at the small
and cheap end of the market.

Theo

Dave Plowman (News)

2022-02-19 13:31:41 UTC

Post by Theo
I think the market for CVTs is shrinking though - being nibbled away by
hybrids and EVs. Seems like it'll become more niche, perhaps at the
small and cheap end of the market.

I'd say the costs of a robotised manual box/auto clutch must have come
down, as they are appearing in cheaper cars now. And those boxes should be
as long lasting as a manual, and as efficient, so no MPG penalty.

--
*Letting a cat out of the bag is easier than putting it back in *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Theo

2022-02-19 22:20:38 UTC

Post by Theo
I think the market for CVTs is shrinking though - being nibbled away by
hybrids and EVs. Seems like it'll become more niche, perhaps at the
small and cheap end of the market.

I'd guess that might be a new niche for it. Bigger/more expensive cars will
go EV, as will tiny city cars with limited range. Leaves a gap of small-ish
and cheap cars - the Fiesta, Ka and friends. They might be described as
student cars - they can't cost very much to buy, the insurance can't be too
much for a young person, but they still get used for long trips so going EV
doesn't really work for the moment as you'd need a too expensive battery to
get the range. A fraction of those will want to be automatics.

The top end of that gap will be nibbled away by hybrids (which perform
better but are more expensive). And the rest will be whatever cheap and
cheerful auto transmission they can come up with - probably those
robot-clutch things, but maybe the occasional CVT.

Theo

Peter Hill

2022-02-23 08:31:50 UTC

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.

Im curious, which car was that?

They all do it and as far as I know none of them have a ludicrous mode
that Coulthard tested in Williams F1 car and instantly knocked several
seconds off his lap times.
Maximum acceleration is at maximum power. Peak torque corresponds to
peak acceleration in a fixed gear but the acceleration at peak power in
the gear below that is far higher.
So when you floor the accelerator pedal what should a CVT do? You have
sent a signal that you want everything it's got. It should give you
every thing it's got. That means winding the engine speed up to peak
power rpm and then continuously adjusting the gear ratio to hold it at
that speed.
A normal manual gearbox just gives you what the engine can deliver at
the current engine speed and you have to sit and wait for revs to rise
as the car accelerates and flatly farts. If you do this at 45 mph in top
gear you can be waiting a very long time for the car to get a move on.
If you want more you have to predict the need and change gear. Rule of
thumb if in doubt change down 2.
So there were 2 objections to CVT gearboxes.
First there was lag while the engine wound up to speed. The extra power
the engine made is initially used to speed up the engine and not the
car. The fact that with a normal gearbox you should be changing gear
during this time just isn't allowed for.
Second. Once wound up, the peak engine power is delivered to the wheels,
like all the hounds of hell let lose. It didn't change down 2 gears, it
went down 3.3. "Well I just wanted to go a little faster, I didn't want
Mach 2!". The only way to ask for "a little faster" is a smaller input
on the throttle, instead of mash it and lift off when you have enough.
So all CVT on the market pretend to be fixed ratio gear boxes. That
means the belt/chain/disc is always running on the same parts of the
cones/toroid. That makes tracks and the CVT fails. There's not supposed
to be any contact as the motion is transferred by a non Newtonian fluid
that becomes solid like silly putty when under shear loads.

The only CVT I've driven was an early DAF van. Not belonging to me, I'd
add. Noisy at the best of times. And incredibly wearing if attempting to
keep up with the traffic.
Are there any CVTs still available new? Do remember the Focus one had a
short life so much in demand as a used spare from a crashed car.

Nissan sell them. Not got a very good reputation in US.

Audi used them but I'm not sure if they still sell them.

Most have been supplanted by DCT.

newshound

2022-02-17 15:38:33 UTC

Post by Brian

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.

I’m curious, which car was that?

The Honda Jazz Hybrid (chain, rather than rubber band, but still
continously variable) has a pair of paddles that let you select seven
different ratios, although the software won't let you be silly.

Brian

2022-02-18 00:26:15 UTC

Post by newshound

Post by Brian

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.

I’m curious, which car was that?

The Honda Jazz Hybrid (chain, rather than rubber band, but still
continously variable) has a pair of paddles that let you select seven
different ratios, although the software won't let you be silly.

Thank you.

Our Smart car had strange system. It had what looked like a normal gear
stick with ( from memory) 5 gears plus reverse. No clutch. Ours had paddles
- an option on the better models. There was also a button on the gear
stick. If you pressed it, you were driving in automatic. However, the
number of gears in manual and automatic mode was different. You could flip
from manual to auto on the move, at any speed.

I found it quite good.

Peter Hill

2022-02-18 14:33:18 UTC

Post by Tim+
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Tim

Well that's a toy. It's right up there with furry dice.

Who in their tiny little mind would cut the power when accelerating by
doing a simulated gear change?

I can see lawsuits, "unintended loss of power".

Adrian Caspersz

2022-02-23 10:34:47 UTC

Post by Tim+
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Tim

Dunno. Rental market?

Some folks that instantly hire cars don't have time to learn a new
method for driving, or any other thing beyond basic controls.

There used to be this thing about the standard of training, that in an
emergency it would (with insurance, license and the owner's permission)
provide you the skills to move / drive someone else's car?

How would you quickly move a strange car like an EV from, say, the path
of an oncoming train*, or something laden with technological iDrive
complexity?

* Answer, That's a promised fireball - run away as quickly as you can!

--
Adrian C

Peter Hill

2022-02-24 08:34:07 UTC

Post by Adrian Caspersz

Post by Tim+
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Tim

Dunno. Rental market?
Some folks that instantly hire cars don't have time to learn a new
method for driving, or any other thing beyond basic controls.
There used to be this thing about the standard of training, that in an
emergency it would (with insurance, license and the owner's permission)
provide you the skills to move / drive someone else's car?
How would you quickly move a strange car like an EV from, say, the path
of an oncoming train*, or something laden with technological iDrive
complexity?
* Answer, That's a promised fireball - run away as quickly as you can!

Less than 17% of Americans know how to drive a manual. Americans are
starting to see manual gearbox as a security option, it defeats car jackers.

Theo

2022-02-24 14:44:43 UTC

Post by Adrian Caspersz
Some folks that instantly hire cars don't have time to learn a new
method for driving, or any other thing beyond basic controls.
There used to be this thing about the standard of training, that in an
emergency it would (with insurance, license and the owner's permission)
provide you the skills to move / drive someone else's car?
How would you quickly move a strange car like an EV from, say, the path
of an oncoming train*, or something laden with technological iDrive
complexity?

TBH I think those days are past. In any car there's a certain amount of
familiarisation:

- How do you start it? Key in lock, fob in slot, RFID card, push button?
- Handbrake? Lever, foot pedal, button? Electric handbrake?
- Gearbox? Manual stick, auto stick on the floor, steering column lever,
widget on the dash?
- Reverse? Where do you put the gear lever? Do you have to do something
else to engage an interlock (push down, pull collar, etc)?
- Lights, wipers, etc
- How to open the petrol cap

Even on a bog standard ICE hire car I've been caught out by things like how
to engage reverse.

Not to say you couldn't figure those out with maybe 10 minutes practice, but
I wouldn't want to do that in a split-second emergency.

Theo

Dave Plowman (News)

2022-02-24 15:40:28 UTC

Post by Theo
Even on a bog standard ICE hire car I've been caught out by things like
how to engage reverse.

I remember picking up a hire car many years ago. In the dark. Middle of
winter in the North of Scotland. Couldn't find the light switch. Went back
to the hire desk at the airport, but they'd gone home. Before the days of
mobile phones.

--
*I never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Brian

2022-02-25 08:19:00 UTC