Least Troublesome Cars

[Martin James Smith]

Hi all,

Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

thanks,

Marty

[Adrian Caspersz]

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

The cup holder in our new Polo broke...

[Fredxx]

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

New?

If you want a reliable car buy one 3 years old with a by now proven good
reliability record.

Some years ago Which magazine came up with 3 year old cars what were far
more reliable than newer models.

[newshound]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

New?
If you want a reliable car buy one 3 years old with a by now proven good
reliability record.
Some years ago Which magazine came up with 3 year old cars what were far
more reliable than newer models.

Another +1 for Which?

FWIW my Jazz hybrid has lived up to its reputation. It's going to need a
set of disks and pads at the next MOT, but all it has needed so far on
top of routine servicing is wiper blades and tyres.

[Martin James Smith]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

New?
If you want a reliable car buy one 3 years old with a by now proven good
reliability record.
Some years ago Which magazine came up with 3 year old cars what were far
more reliable than newer models.

If a top quality 3yr old example would prove a more reliable bet, then
I'd have no problem with that.

[Theo]

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

Toyota Hybrid.

Or possibly EV, if that works for you.
(slightly less of a known quantity long term, but much less mechanical to
need servicing/go wrong)

Theo

[Fredxx]

Post by Theo

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

Toyota Hybrid.
Or possibly EV, if that works for you.
(slightly less of a known quantity long term, but much less mechanical to
need servicing/go wrong)

Remind us, how long do batteries last and how much do they cost to replace?

[Peter Hill]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Theo

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

Toyota Hybrid.
Or possibly EV, if that works for you.
(slightly less of a known quantity long term, but much less mechanical to
need servicing/go wrong)

Remind us, how long do batteries last and how much do they cost to replace?

You silly old FUDder.

1: How long they last.

Nissan are claiming that used in temperate North European climate they
can last for over 20 years. Most cars are scrapped at 14 years - though
Nissan seem to think 10 years is cars life. They are worrying what they
will they do with all the batteries from scrapped cars (#Tesla call it a
Powerwall).

https://insideevs.com/news/351314/nissan-leaf-battery-longevity/

If you frequently use rapid charging life will be reduced. If you are a
charge to 100% at home, life will be reduced - only charge to 90-95%. If
you run it near flat frequently life will be reduced.

If you commute for more than 1 1/2 hours each day then an older Nissan
Leaf may not be the car for you. Get a Tesla 3.

2: How much they cost to replace.

£4290. (but 1/2 of this in Japan)

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/new-nissan-leaf-battery-cost-4920

It's not worth replacing a battery on an 8 year old Leaf. Battery health
is an important factor in the value of 2nd hand Leaf or any EV.

"Paul O’Neill, EV manager for Nissan Motor GB, said "Nissan expects the
majority of Leaf drivers will never need to replace their battery. The
fact we have only replaced three batteries out of 30,000 Leafs sold
across Europe since launch supports this."

[Theo]

Post by Peter Hill
It's not worth replacing a battery on an 8 year old Leaf. Battery health
is an important factor in the value of 2nd hand Leaf or any EV.
"Paul O’Neill, EV manager for Nissan Motor GB, said "Nissan expects the
majority of Leaf drivers will never need to replace their battery. The
fact we have only replaced three batteries out of 30,000 Leafs sold
across Europe since launch supports this."

Battery technology (or rather the management of batteries) has moved on a
huge amount in the last 8 years. The OP was asking for a new car, so they
won't experience the growing pains of early 2010s technology, which is the
current crop of cars reaching the end of their first decade.

It's like being in 1990 and comparing with a PC from 1980, or an aircraft in
1930 compared with 1910. The past was not a simple predictor of the future.

Theo

[alan_m]

Post by Peter Hill
Nissan are claiming that used in temperate North European climate they
can last for over 20 years.

Just like the figures they quote for miles per litre/gallon?

Post by Peter Hill
Most cars are scrapped at 14 years - though
Nissan seem to think 10 years is cars life. They are worrying what they
will they do with all the batteries from scrapped cars (#Tesla call it a
Powerwall).
https://insideevs.com/news/351314/nissan-leaf-battery-longevity/
If you frequently use rapid charging life will be reduced. If you are a
charge to 100% at home, life will be reduced - only charge to 90-95%. If
you run it near flat frequently life will be reduced.

And if you don't use the cabin heater during the UK winter the battery
will last longer.

[Fredxx]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Fredxx

Post by Theo

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

Toyota Hybrid.
Or possibly EV, if that works for you.
(slightly less of a known quantity long term, but much less
mechanical to
need servicing/go wrong)

Remind us, how long do batteries last and how much do they cost to replace?

You silly old FUDder.
1: How long they last.
Nissan are claiming that used in temperate North European climate they
can last for over 20 years. Most cars are scrapped at 14 years - though
Nissan seem to think 10 years is cars life. They are worrying what they
will they do with all the batteries from scrapped cars (#Tesla call it a
Powerwall).
https://insideevs.com/news/351314/nissan-leaf-battery-longevity/
If you frequently use rapid charging life will be reduced. If you are a
charge to 100% at home, life will be reduced - only charge to 90-95%. If
you run it near flat frequently life will be reduced.
If you commute for more than 1 1/2 hours each day then an older Nissan
Leaf may not be the car for you. Get a Tesla 3.
2: How much they cost to replace.
£4290. (but 1/2 of this in Japan)
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/new-nissan-leaf-battery-cost-4920
It's not worth replacing a battery on an 8 year old Leaf. Battery health
is an important factor in the value of 2nd hand Leaf or any EV.
"Paul O’Neill, EV manager for Nissan Motor GB, said "Nissan expects the
majority of Leaf drivers will never need to replace their battery. The
fact we have only replaced three batteries out of 30,000 Leafs sold
across Europe since launch supports this."

Many thanks for the info. Somewhat longer than I believed.

I did note that Nissan only guarantee 60,000 miles but if the battery
failed just outside the warranty it implies the car could be a write off
after 5 years of typical driving.

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Fredxx

Post by Theo

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

Toyota Hybrid.
Or possibly EV, if that works for you.
(slightly less of a known quantity long term, but much less
mechanical to
need servicing/go wrong)

Remind us, how long do batteries last and how much do they cost to replace?

You silly old FUDder.
1: How long they last.
Nissan are claiming that used in temperate North European climate they
can last for over 20 years. Most cars are scrapped at 14 years - though
Nissan seem to think 10 years is cars life. They are worrying what they
will they do with all the batteries from scrapped cars (#Tesla call it a
Powerwall).
https://insideevs.com/news/351314/nissan-leaf-battery-longevity/
If you frequently use rapid charging life will be reduced. If you are a
charge to 100% at home, life will be reduced - only charge to 90-95%. If
you run it near flat frequently life will be reduced.
If you commute for more than 1 1/2 hours each day then an older Nissan
Leaf may not be the car for you. Get a Tesla 3.
2: How much they cost to replace.
£4290. (but 1/2 of this in Japan)
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/new-nissan-leaf-battery-cost-4920
It's not worth replacing a battery on an 8 year old Leaf. Battery health
is an important factor in the value of 2nd hand Leaf or any EV.
"Paul O’Neill, EV manager for Nissan Motor GB, said "Nissan expects the
majority of Leaf drivers will never need to replace their battery. The
fact we have only replaced three batteries out of 30,000 Leafs sold
across Europe since launch supports this."

Many thanks for the info. Somewhat longer than I believed.
I did note that Nissan only guarantee 60,000 miles but if the battery
failed just outside the warranty it implies the car could be a write off
after 5 years of typical driving.

The Nissan claim puts me in mind of the BMW boast that their
transmissions were maintenance free for the service life of the
vehicle and actually advised customers and service centres to not
bother changing the gearbox oil and filter. See how that worked out
for them. And then there was the VW emissions scandal.
Manufacturers' claims need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

[D A Stocks]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Fredxx

Post by Theo

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

Toyota Hybrid.
Or possibly EV, if that works for you.
(slightly less of a known quantity long term, but much less mechanical to
need servicing/go wrong)

Remind us, how long do batteries last and how much do they cost to replace?

You silly old FUDder.
1: How long they last.
Nissan are claiming that used in temperate North European climate they
can last for over 20 years. Most cars are scrapped at 14 years - though
Nissan seem to think 10 years is cars life. They are worrying what they
will they do with all the batteries from scrapped cars (#Tesla call it a
Powerwall).
https://insideevs.com/news/351314/nissan-leaf-battery-longevity/
If you frequently use rapid charging life will be reduced. If you are a
charge to 100% at home, life will be reduced - only charge to 90-95%. If
you run it near flat frequently life will be reduced.
If you commute for more than 1 1/2 hours each day then an older Nissan
Leaf may not be the car for you. Get a Tesla 3.
2: How much they cost to replace.
£4290. (but 1/2 of this in Japan)
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/new-nissan-leaf-battery-cost-4920
It's not worth replacing a battery on an 8 year old Leaf. Battery health
is an important factor in the value of 2nd hand Leaf or any EV.
"Paul O’Neill, EV manager for Nissan Motor GB, said "Nissan expects the
majority of Leaf drivers will never need to replace their battery. The
fact we have only replaced three batteries out of 30,000 Leafs sold
across Europe since launch supports this."

Many thanks for the info. Somewhat longer than I believed.
I did note that Nissan only guarantee 60,000 miles but if the battery
failed just outside the warranty it implies the car could be a write off
after 5 years of typical driving.

Lexus, who use the same battery technology as the Toyota Prius, give you a
warranty for 10k milee/one year as the result of a check that costs £50
standalone or is free with a service. They will extend that warranty until
the car is 15 years old. As others have pointed out there are pleanty
examples of Priuses getting to over 250,000 miles and Lexuses are also known
for their longevity.

There is a healthy secondary market in battery refurbishment for the
Toyota/Lexus battery packs because there are so many Priuses around. The
Check Hybrid System warning light usually means there is a bad module
somewhere in the battery block; these are connected in series so one bad
module will tend to degrade the whole system. There are companies out there
who will identify and replace the bad module(s) and generally sort the
system out for you at reasoable rates, e.g.
https://www.hybridbatterysolutions.co.uk/prices-and-services/

Not sure how this translates to full EVs, but I would expect similar rules
apply, although the hybrid batteries get a fairly easy life.

--
DAS

[Theo]

Post by D A Stocks
Not sure how this translates to full EVs, but I would expect similar rules
apply, although the hybrid batteries get a fairly easy life.

EV batteries are a lot bigger and more unwieldy. It is possible to remove
some of them from underneath using a forklift. I'm not sure how easy it is
to get at modules of some of them, but I presume you can with some effort.

For the Tesla Model 3, Elon says (2019) battery modules should last 300-500k
miles (1500 cycles) and a module replacement would be $5-7k. Tesla's
Chinese battery supplier CATL is making a battery rated at 2 million km
(1.24 million miles).

A module swap is probably at least half a day's labour for somewhere that's
set up to do it, so it is likely not a very cheap repair even if you get the
modules from scrap vehicles. (Tesla model S 5kWh module is about GBP1000 on
ebay these days)

Doable, but not trivial. OTOH I'm not sure what you'd be looking at for an
engine swap in terms of parts and labour.

Theo

[alan_m]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Theo

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

Toyota Hybrid.
Or possibly EV, if that works for you.
(slightly less of a known quantity long term, but much less mechanical to
need servicing/go wrong)

Remind us, how long do batteries last and how much do they cost to replace?

+1
And how much has the capacity dropped in 3 years?

I guess than many with new electric cars are going to get rid of them
within 3 to 5 years before the expensive replacements become necessary.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Theo

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

Toyota Hybrid.
Or possibly EV, if that works for you. (slightly less of a known
quantity long term, but much less mechanical to need servicing/go
wrong)

Remind us, how long do batteries last and how much do they cost to replace?

+1 And how much has the capacity dropped in 3 years?
I guess than many with new electric cars are going to get rid of them
within 3 to 5 years before the expensive replacements become necessary.

My experience of quality Li-Ion is they have a pretty long life if not
abused. And no reason they should be abused in an EV.

[Andrew]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Theo

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

Toyota Hybrid.
Or possibly EV, if that works for you.
(slightly less of a known quantity long term, but much less mechanical to
need servicing/go wrong)

Remind us, how long do batteries last and how much do they cost to replace?

Prius's used as taxis are getting up to 300,000 miles without problem,
here and in North America.

[Kellerman]

Post by Theo

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

Toyota Hybrid.
Or possibly EV, if that works for you.
(slightly less of a known quantity long term, but much less mechanical to
need servicing/go wrong)
Theo

EV? still too expensive and not enough charge stations for me to have
one as my only vehicle.

Nissan Leaf £29,000 new depreciating to £9000 at 3 years old 48,000
miles (source Autotrader, cars within a 50 mile radius of Peterborough)
Wow! pointless buying new £20,000 loss in 3 years!

That tells me they are not very popular and Joe Public must think that
there is far too much of a risk of battery/control electronics failure
or they are in fact not very good.

That's the currently available crop, give it another 5 to 10 years and
there might be suitable vehicles, battery technology, enough charging
stations and available National Grid capacity to charge them.

[Tim+]

Post by Kellerman

Post by Theo

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

Toyota Hybrid.
Or possibly EV, if that works for you.
(slightly less of a known quantity long term, but much less mechanical to
need servicing/go wrong)
Theo

EV? still too expensive and not enough charge stations for me to have
one as my only vehicle.

Whilst those are two important considerations, having had a test drive in
an EV, I never want to drive an ICE powered abomination again!

It’s only when you drive an EV that you realise just how crap ICEs are for
powering vehicles.

Tim

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article

It‘s only when you drive an EV that you realise just how crap ICEs are for
powering vehicles.

My feeling is you need to get a decent one. With a modern auto
transmission.

[Tim+]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

It‘s only when you drive an EV that you realise just how crap ICEs are for
powering vehicles.

My feeling is you need to get a decent one. With a modern auto
transmission.

A million moving parts flailing around generating lots of heat, noise,
fumes and with power characteristics so poor it needs electric motors just
to get it going and then lots of gears to compensate for the lousy rev
range. Yes, over the years car makers did get very good at hiding the
deficiencies of ICEs but the deficiencies never went away.

My V6 Jag was nice, but it was a dinosaur. I think you need to get a
decent EV.

Tim

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article

Post by Tim+

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

It‘s only when you drive an EV that you realise just how crap ICEs
are for powering vehicles.

My feeling is you need to get a decent one. With a modern auto
transmission.

A million moving parts flailing around generating lots of heat, noise,
fumes and with power characteristics so poor it needs electric motors
just to get it going and then lots of gears to compensate for the lousy
rev range. Yes, over the years car makers did get very good at hiding
the deficiencies of ICEs but the deficiencies never went away.
My V6 Jag was nice, but it was a dinosaur. I think you need to get a
decent EV.

Makes absolutely no sense here given the mileage I do. Plus the fact there
isn't one to replace my daily driver. And just where would I charge it
given I park on the street?

Once they level the playing field as regards taxation on fuel, etc, EVs
will become even less popular.

[Tim+]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Tim+

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

It‘s only when you drive an EV that you realise just how crap ICEs
are for powering vehicles.

My feeling is you need to get a decent one. With a modern auto
transmission.

A million moving parts flailing around generating lots of heat, noise,
fumes and with power characteristics so poor it needs electric motors
just to get it going and then lots of gears to compensate for the lousy
rev range. Yes, over the years car makers did get very good at hiding
the deficiencies of ICEs but the deficiencies never went away.
My V6 Jag was nice, but it was a dinosaur. I think you need to get a
decent EV.

Makes absolutely no sense here given the mileage I do. Plus the fact there
isn't one to replace my daily driver. And just where would I charge it
given I park on the street?

Of course they won’t suit everyone, any more than an archaic ICE powered
automatic barge, and yet that seems to be your repeated mantra.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Once they level the playing field as regards taxation on fuel, etc, EVs
will become even less popular.

Very probably but I think it’ll be a while coming. Meanwhile, you might go
to your grave never having sampled the delights of driving an EV.

Tim

[Tim+]

Post by Tim+

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Once they level the playing field as regards taxation on fuel, etc, EVs
will become even less popular.

Very probably but I think it’ll be a while coming.

Should have said, yes cost will go up, but EVs will come anyway. There soon
won’t be any alternative in the new car market.

Tim

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by Tim+

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Once they level the playing field as regards taxation on fuel, etc, EVs
will become even less popular.

Very probably but I think it’ll be a while coming.

Should have said, yes cost will go up, but EVs will come anyway. There soon
won’t be any alternative in the new car market.

And that is something we should all rejoice over?? Personally I'm
grateful I'm old enough to be dead by that time.

[Tim+]

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by Tim+

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Once they level the playing field as regards taxation on fuel, etc, EVs
will become even less popular.

Very probably but I think it’ll be a while coming.

Should have said, yes cost will go up, but EVs will come anyway. There soon
won’t be any alternative in the new car market.

And that is something we should all rejoice over??

Not what I’m saying. Just pointing out that burying your head in the sand
won’t stop it happening.

Post by Cursitor Doom
Personally I'm
grateful I'm old enough to be dead by that time.

I’m incredibly grateful that EVs have become a reality in my lifetime. Have
you actually driven one? A test drive will cost you nothing. It might
surprise you.

Tim

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Makes absolutely no sense here given the mileage I do. Plus the fact there
isn't one to replace my daily driver. And just where would I charge it
given I park on the street?

Of course they won‘t suit everyone, any more than an archaic ICE powered
automatic barge, and yet that seems to be your repeated mantra.

Unlike you I don't see EVs as being the answer to everything.

And if you think it's the only way to provide a nice smooth power flow,
you've simply not driven a decent car.

Of course when you compare a nice new £30000 vehicle, it's likely to be
better in some ways to an ancient banger.

[Tim+]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Makes absolutely no sense here given the mileage I do. Plus the fact there
isn't one to replace my daily driver. And just where would I charge it
given I park on the street?

Of course they won‘t suit everyone, any more than an archaic ICE powered
automatic barge, and yet that seems to be your repeated mantra.

Unlike you I don't see EVs as being the answer to everything.

In my case, it’s got fuck all to do with them being them being the answer
to anything. They’re just a fuck-load nicer to drive.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And if you think it's the only way to provide a nice smooth power flow,
you've simply not driven a decent car.

<yawn>

Missing the point again. Go out and try one.

Tim

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Makes absolutely no sense here given the mileage I do. Plus the fact there
isn't one to replace my daily driver. And just where would I charge it
given I park on the street?

Of course they won‘t suit everyone, any more than an archaic ICE powered
automatic barge, and yet that seems to be your repeated mantra.

Unlike you I don't see EVs as being the answer to everything.

In my case, it‘s got fuck all to do with them being them being the answer
to anything. They‘re just a fuck-load nicer to drive.

Your view is anything but the universal one. I'll say again - it would be
easy for a nice new and expensive EV to be better than what you're used to.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And if you think it's the only way to provide a nice smooth power flow,
you've simply not driven a decent car.

<yawn>
Missing the point again. Go out and try one.

Why? I'm not in the market for a new car. Indeed never have been. But in
any case, as I said, an EV simply wouldn't be practical for me anyway. In
the same way as it isn't for a large percentage of the population who
would find it difficult or impossible to charge one.

--
P

[RJH]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Makes absolutely no sense here given the mileage I do. Plus the fact there
isn't one to replace my daily driver. And just where would I charge it
given I park on the street?

Of course they won‘t suit everyone, any more than an archaic ICE powered
automatic barge, and yet that seems to be your repeated mantra.

Unlike you I don't see EVs as being the answer to everything.

In my case, it‘s got fuck all to do with them being them being the answer
to anything. They‘re just a fuck-load nicer to drive.

Your view is anything but the universal one. I'll say again - it would be
easy for a nice new and expensive EV to be better than what you're used to.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And if you think it's the only way to provide a nice smooth power flow,
you've simply not driven a decent car.

<yawn>
Missing the point again. Go out and try one.

Why? I'm not in the market for a new car. Indeed never have been. But in
any case, as I said, an EV simply wouldn't be practical for me anyway. In
the same way as it isn't for a large percentage of the population who
would find it difficult or impossible to charge one.

I'd have a guessed a majority - but maybe not:

"In 2010, 40% of dwellings had use of a garage, 26% had other off street
parking, 32% relied on street parking, and 2% of homes had no parking
provision whatsoever" English Housing Survey 2010

Key problem at the moment is city dwellers in flats, terraces etc who could
best make use of EVs probably can't.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by RJH
Key problem at the moment is city dwellers in flats, terraces etc who could
best make use of EVs probably can't.

However, if they have somewhere to park, there could be a charging point
there. All city streets have electricity running down them. A tax on all
electric vehicles could be used to pay for them.

BTW, when you say 40% of the population have the use of a garage, love to
know how many use it to keep their car in it. Many newish developments
round here have garage blocks. But hardly any use them for other than
storage. Nor could you park outside to charge the car without blocking
access for others. Even assuming the garage has an adequate power supply -
many don't have any. Off street parking at your house would be easier, of
course.

[tony sayer]

In article <riirv4$18j6$***@gioia.aioe.org>, RJH <***@gmx.com>
scribeth thus

Post by RJH

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Makes absolutely no sense here given the mileage I do. Plus the fact

there

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
isn't one to replace my daily driver. And just where would I charge it
given I park on the street?

Of course they won‘t suit everyone, any more than an archaic ICE powered
automatic barge, and yet that seems to be your repeated mantra.

Unlike you I don't see EVs as being the answer to everything.

In my case, it‘s got fuck all to do with them being them being the answer
to anything. They‘re just a fuck-load nicer to drive.

Your view is anything but the universal one. I'll say again - it would be
easy for a nice new and expensive EV to be better than what you're used to.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And if you think it's the only way to provide a nice smooth power flow,
you've simply not driven a decent car.

<yawn>
Missing the point again. Go out and try one.

Why? I'm not in the market for a new car. Indeed never have been. But in
any case, as I said, an EV simply wouldn't be practical for me anyway. In
the same way as it isn't for a large percentage of the population who
would find it difficult or impossible to charge one.

"In 2010, 40% of dwellings had use of a garage, 26% had other off street
parking, 32% relied on street parking, and 2% of homes had no parking
provision whatsoever" English Housing Survey 2010
Key problem at the moment is city dwellers in flats, terraces etc who could
best make use of EVs probably can't.

Heres a typical side street in Cambridge how do we propose the install
the charging gear then?...


https://goo.gl/maps/1oUHZdkPXiLFopGWA

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by tony sayer

Post by RJH
"In 2010, 40% of dwellings had use of a garage, 26% had other off street
parking, 32% relied on street parking, and 2% of homes had no parking
provision whatsoever" English Housing Survey 2010
Key problem at the moment is city dwellers in flats, terraces etc who could
best make use of EVs probably can't.

Heres a typical side street in Cambridge how do we propose the install
the charging gear then?...

I'm utterly amazed at the claim that 40% of dwellings have their own
garage. Where did this come from?

[RJH]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by tony sayer

Post by RJH
"In 2010, 40% of dwellings had use of a garage, 26% had other off street
parking, 32% relied on street parking, and 2% of homes had no parking
provision whatsoever" English Housing Survey 2010
Key problem at the moment is city dwellers in flats, terraces etc who could
best make use of EVs probably can't.

Heres a typical side street in Cambridge how do we propose the install
the charging gear then?...

I'm not sure. In Sheffield, we recently had every street lamp changed,
involving digging up every pavement. Cost billions (to be paid for under a
privatisation arrangement over 30 years, natch). I did write in during the
consultation suggesting street charging infrastructure, but had no reply, and
to my knowledge, there isn't any.

To my untrained mind they more or less ruled out one possibility by moving
pretty much all of the street lamps as far from the kerb as possible.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I'm utterly amazed at the claim that 40% of dwellings have their own
garage. Where did this come from?

Should have been clearer - that's a direct quote from the English Housing
Survey 2010. To my knowledge, there's no raw data, but this could give you an
idea of dwelling type by UK household (from NOMIS/2011 census):

Whole house or bungalow: Detached 6,336,308
Whole house or bungalow: Semi-detached 8,268,561
Whole house or bungalow: Terraced (including end-terrace) 6,674,620
Flat, maisonette or apartment: Purpose-built block of flats or tenement
4,903,447
Flat, maisonette or apartment: Part of a converted or shared house (including
bed-sits) 1,070,132

Detached, semis and flats /tend/ to have more access to parking. It's terraces
that are stuffed.

IME people who live in London are astonished at the small number of flat
dwellers in the UK, and at the high rates of owner occupation.

[James Heaton]

On 1 Sep 2020 at 11:14:11 BST, ""Dave Plowman" <News)"

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by RJH
"In 2010, 40% of dwellings had use of a garage, 26% had other off

street

Post by RJH
parking, 32% relied on street parking, and 2% of homes had no parking
provision whatsoever" English Housing Survey 2010
Key problem at the moment is city dwellers in flats, terraces etc who

could

Post by RJH
best make use of EVs probably can't.

Heres a typical side street in Cambridge how do we propose the install
the charging gear then?...

I'm not sure. In Sheffield, we recently had every street lamp changed,
involving digging up every pavement. Cost billions (to be paid for under a
privatisation arrangement over 30 years, natch). I did write in during the
consultation suggesting street charging infrastructure, but had no reply, and
to my knowledge, there isn't any.
To my untrained mind they more or less ruled out one possibility by moving
pretty much all of the street lamps as far from the kerb as possible.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I'm utterly amazed at the claim that 40% of dwellings have their own
garage. Where did this come from?

Should have been clearer - that's a direct quote from the English Housing
Survey 2010. To my knowledge, there's no raw data, but this could give you an
Whole house or bungalow: Detached 6,336,308
Whole house or bungalow: Semi-detached 8,268,561
Whole house or bungalow: Terraced (including end-terrace) 6,674,620
Flat, maisonette or apartment: Purpose-built block of flats or tenement
4,903,447
Flat, maisonette or apartment: Part of a converted or shared house (including
bed-sits) 1,070,132
Detached, semis and flats /tend/ to have more access to parking. It's terraces
that are stuffed.
IME people who live in London are astonished at the small number of flat
dwellers in the UK, and at the high rates of owner occupation.

I've got the 2016 report for work, and found the following which confirms
Rob's report:

James

In 2016, 38% of dwellings had a garage. Provision was markedly higher
among owner occupied homes (53%). Over a quarter (28%) of dwellings had
off street parking while 18% had adequate street parking which was most
common for local authority and housing association homes. Only inadequate
street parking was available for 14% of homes, and this was least prevalent
in
the owner occupied sector. Just 2% of the stock had no parking provision,

The most common form of parking has been the use of a garage although
from 1996 to 2016 the proportion of homes with a garage steadily decreased
from 43% to 38%. There was also a fall in the proportion of dwellings with
adequate street parking from 23% to 18% over the 20 year period.
There has, however, been a concurrent increase in homes with other off
street parking from 17% in 1996 to 28% in 2016. This may be partly a result
of garages being converted into living spaces and front gardens being
converted into driveways. Furthermore, the increase in new build flats may
account for some of these changes.

[Fredxx]

Post by tony sayer
scribeth thus

Post by RJH

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Makes absolutely no sense here given the mileage I do. Plus the fact

there

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
isn't one to replace my daily driver. And just where would I charge it
given I park on the street?

Of course they won‘t suit everyone, any more than an archaic ICE powered
automatic barge, and yet that seems to be your repeated mantra.

Unlike you I don't see EVs as being the answer to everything.

In my case, it‘s got fuck all to do with them being them being the answer
to anything. They‘re just a fuck-load nicer to drive.

Your view is anything but the universal one. I'll say again - it would be
easy for a nice new and expensive EV to be better than what you're used to.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And if you think it's the only way to provide a nice smooth power flow,
you've simply not driven a decent car.

<yawn>
Missing the point again. Go out and try one.

Why? I'm not in the market for a new car. Indeed never have been. But in
any case, as I said, an EV simply wouldn't be practical for me anyway. In
the same way as it isn't for a large percentage of the population who
would find it difficult or impossible to charge one.

"In 2010, 40% of dwellings had use of a garage, 26% had other off street
parking, 32% relied on street parking, and 2% of homes had no parking
provision whatsoever" English Housing Survey 2010
Key problem at the moment is city dwellers in flats, terraces etc who could
best make use of EVs probably can't.

Heres a typical side street in Cambridge how do we propose the install
the charging gear then?...
https://goo.gl/maps/1oUHZdkPXiLFopGWA

The only I can a way forward is to lease battery packs and change them
at service stations.

At the moment they are built in, but if they became a modular that would
save a lot of issues surrounding charging.

It might also bring down the capital costs of EVs.

[Tim+]

Post by Fredxx
The only I can a way forward is to lease battery packs and change them
at service stations.

I believe that Teslas were designed with this in mind to begin with (the
batteries are in a large under-car “tray” but the cost and logistics of
swapping batteries, keeping enough charged up in readiness, the sheer
volume of stored battery packs compared to petrol/diesel made it
uneconomic.

If Tesla couldn’t make it work, I doubt anyone else can.

Tim

[Fredxx]

Post by Tim+

Post by Fredxx
The only I can a way forward is to lease battery packs and change them
at service stations.

I believe that Teslas were designed with this in mind to begin with (the
batteries are in a large under-car “tray” but the cost and logistics of
swapping batteries,

Where cost and difficulty are design considerations.

Post by Tim+
keeping enough charged up in readiness, the sheer
volume of stored battery packs compared to petrol/diesel made it
uneconomic.

That is more likely the case. It would need a substantial investment and
sufficient take up of EVs.

Post by Tim+
If Tesla couldn’t make it work, I doubt anyone else can.

Did they actually try? I suspect they simply did the sums and gave up
with current take up of EVs.

[Robin]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Tim+

Post by Fredxx
The only I can a way forward is to lease battery packs and change them
at service stations.

I believe that Teslas were designed with this in mind to begin with (the
batteries are in a large under-car “tray” but the cost and logistics of
swapping batteries,

Where cost and difficulty are design considerations.

Post by Tim+
keeping enough charged up in readiness, the sheer
volume of stored battery packs compared to petrol/diesel made it
uneconomic.

That is more likely the case. It would need a substantial investment and
sufficient take up of EVs.

Post by Tim+
If Tesla couldn’t make it work, I doubt anyone else can.

Did they actually try? I suspect they simply did the sums and gave up
with current take up of EVs.

There was at least one "pilot" swap station open to the public. I've no
idea if that was when launched a pilot for a still active programme or
more in the nature of "we've sunk so much of the cost of the pilot we
might as well...".

[Peter Hill]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Tim+

Post by Fredxx
The only I can a way forward is to lease battery packs and change them
at service stations.

I believe that Teslas were designed with this in mind to begin with (the
batteries are in a large under-car “tray” but the cost and logistics of
swapping batteries,

Where cost and difficulty are design considerations.

Post by Tim+
keeping enough charged up in readiness, the sheer
volume of stored battery packs compared to petrol/diesel made it
uneconomic.

That is more likely the case. It would need a substantial investment
and sufficient take up of EVs.

Post by Tim+
If Tesla couldn’t make it work, I doubt anyone else can.

Did they actually try? I suspect they simply did the sums and gave up
with current take up of EVs.

There was at least one "pilot" swap station open to the public.  I've no
idea if that was when launched a pilot for a still active programme or
more in the nature of "we've sunk so much of the cost of the pilot we
might as well...".

https://www.tesla.com/videos/battery-swap-event

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-swap-program-for-superchargers/

The capability got Tesla 4 extra points on California's EV rebate, worth
about $1000 per point.

Every vehicle has a differently shaped battery pack so you are limited
to swapping at your car makers franchise dealers or swap stations. They
will have to open 24x7.

But Nio seem to making battery swaps work in China, they are attracting
buyers that can't have home charging. Owners can rent a 84 kWh to
replace 70 kWh pack for longer trips. 100kwh battery pack is same shape.

https://electrek.co/2020/06/02/nio-battery-swap-electric-cars-completes-500000-swaps/
https://www.nio.com/nio-power

If all EV batteries were in standard 52V (13 cell) 2.5 kWh modules (eg
414V 60 kWh = 8x3 modules, 414V 80 kWh = 8x4 modules.) that fitted like
Lego blocks in various battery trays it may be reasonable to swap them
but it's going to take longer as each battery pack has to be configured
on demand. As battery tech improves the power density will increase and
the module will be lighter and have empty space.

This can only work if ALL batteries are on lease as no one is going to
be swapping their brand new battery for a 3 year old 1100 cycle battery.
If you had a 5 year old car, swapped the battery and got a newish
battery under 100 cycles, that was 50Kg lighter, you would never ever
have a another battery swap. It would be a several £1000 upgrade for free.

[Fredxx]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Fredxx

Post by Tim+

Post by Fredxx
The only I can a way forward is to lease battery packs and change them
at service stations.

I believe that Teslas were designed with this in mind to begin with (the
batteries are in a large under-car “tray” but the cost and logistics of
swapping batteries,

Where cost and difficulty are design considerations.

Post by Tim+
keeping enough charged up in readiness, the sheer
volume of stored battery packs compared to petrol/diesel made it
uneconomic.

That is more likely the case. It would need a substantial investment
and sufficient take up of EVs.

Post by Tim+
If Tesla couldn’t make it work, I doubt anyone else can.

Did they actually try? I suspect they simply did the sums and gave up
with current take up of EVs.

There was at least one "pilot" swap station open to the public.  I've
no idea if that was when launched a pilot for a still active programme
or more in the nature of "we've sunk so much of the cost of the pilot
we might as well...".

https://www.tesla.com/videos/battery-swap-event

Which sort of endorses the point I made, thanks.

Post by Peter Hill
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-swap-program-for-superchargers/
The capability got Tesla 4 extra points on California's EV rebate, worth
about $1000 per point.

That goes to show how subsidies can actually distort and destroy
markets. If California's gave a rebate for cars using standardised
battery packs it would be a great move forward. I guess it's not in the
big manufacturer's to lobby for such

Post by Peter Hill
Every vehicle has a differently shaped battery pack so you are limited
to swapping at your car makers franchise dealers or swap stations. They
will have to open 24x7.
But Nio seem to making battery swaps work in China, they are attracting
buyers that can't have home charging. Owners can rent a 84 kWh to
replace 70 kWh pack for longer trips. 100kwh battery pack is same shape.
https://electrek.co/2020/06/02/nio-battery-swap-electric-cars-completes-500000-swaps/
https://www.nio.com/nio-power
If all EV batteries were in standard 52V (13 cell) 2.5 kWh modules (eg
414V 60 kWh = 8x3 modules, 414V 80 kWh = 8x4 modules.) that fitted like
Lego blocks in various battery trays it may be reasonable to swap them
but it's going to take longer as each battery pack has to be configured
on demand. As battery tech improves the power density will increase and
the module will be lighter and have empty space.
This can only work if ALL batteries are on lease as no one is going to
be swapping their brand new battery for a 3 year old 1100 cycle battery.
If you had a 5 year old car, swapped the battery and got a newish
battery under 100 cycles, that was 50Kg lighter, you would never ever
have a another battery swap. It would be a several £1000 upgrade for free.

I'm sure, in the same way we have different nozzles for different fuels
packs can be standardised. As pack wear then perhaps a cost per kWhr
you're likely to get from it.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article

Post by Tim+

Post by Fredxx
The only I can a way forward is to lease battery packs and change them
at service stations.

I believe that Teslas were designed with this in mind to begin with (the
batteries are in a large under-car ”tray• but the cost and logistics of
swapping batteries, keeping enough charged up in readiness, the sheer
volume of stored battery packs compared to petrol/diesel made it
uneconomic.
If Tesla couldn‘t make it work, I doubt anyone else can.

Just look at the logistics. How many spare packs would each filling
station have to keep to satisfy demand? At £10,000 quid each plus?

And you'd need to standardise battery packs across all makes. Good luck
with that one.

[Theo]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Fredxx
The only I can a way forward is to lease battery packs and change them
at service stations.

If Tesla couldn?t make it work, I doubt anyone else can.

Just look at the logistics. How many spare packs would each filling
station have to keep to satisfy demand? At £10,000 quid each plus?
And you'd need to standardise battery packs across all makes. Good luck
with that one.

And that's set against fast charge times, which are improving. It seems we
can push charge into a battery rather quickly, so why do you need the
complex logistics of battery swapping? This is the call Tesla made when
abandoning swapping - fast charging got good enough to not need it.

If grid infrastructure is an issue for fast charging, I can see examples
where a 'filling station' has its own generation infrastructure and a big
battery to balance the comsumption. Drive in, DC fast-charge for 5/10/20
mins, drive out. Meanwhile the wind/solar/nuclear/etc replenishes the
battery.

(and even if you don't have charging at home, you may do at
work/shops/wherever you drive, so you can charge there, which reduces the
demand for 'filling stations')

Theo

[AJH]

Post by Theo
And that's set against fast charge times, which are improving. It seems we
can push charge into a battery rather quickly, so why do you need the
complex logistics of battery swapping?

That's my take; with a 250 mile range my daughter's EV has never been on
a fast charger, only charged at home and a couple of top ups overnight
on my 13A three pin extension. If she ever wanted to do a long journey
she can borrow my car.

I certainly wouldn't hesitate to drive an ev over an ic engined car but
it isn't going to happen in my remaining driving time simply from a
capital cost point of view, unless the Kona is offered at a reasonable
price by the leasing company in 3 years time. I think the battery will
still have some warranty left then.

As EV subsystems become more ubiquitous models using the same drive
train will feature them even if an IC engine and alternator is plonked in.

I can see the cost and complication of euro 6 diesels in commercial
vehicles making hydrogen fuel cell commercials look more competitive
over the next year or so.

The big concern is if China pulls out of the 3 (or 4) nuclear power
plants because of cost escalation in the face of additional planned
windpower what is going to provide our baseload?

[Theo]

Post by AJH

Post by Theo
And that's set against fast charge times, which are improving. It seems we
can push charge into a battery rather quickly, so why do you need the
complex logistics of battery swapping?

That's my take; with a 250 mile range my daughter's EV has never been on
a fast charger, only charged at home and a couple of top ups overnight
on my 13A three pin extension. If she ever wanted to do a long journey
she can borrow my car.

Because she has access to home charging, that works.

Without offstreet parking, you need to do regular fillups, even fast
chargers or at work/etc. However if you don't have parking at home you're
already constrained, and maybe a future solution to that wouldn't be
onstreet parking but parking at a multi-storey around the corner which can
also charge. You might have to walk a few minutes to pick up your car (or
summon it, if self-driving finally becomes a thing), but the streets stop
being choked with parked cars.

Or you simply don't own a car but use one when needed. Pre-pandemic, the
car-club model worked for some people.

Post by AJH
I can see the cost and complication of euro 6 diesels in commercial
vehicles making hydrogen fuel cell commercials look more competitive
over the next year or so.

I liken ICEs v EVs to hard drives v SSDs. Hard drives are amazing
mechanical things that manage to fly a piece of metal nanometres above
another piece of metal, and yet be robust against vibration, temperature,
etc. But it's much easier to just have a solid-state chip that does the
storage - no moving parts, no mechanical tolerances, just a standardised
silicon production line. Simple wins.

Post by AJH
The big concern is if China pulls out of the 3 (or 4) nuclear power
plants because of cost escalation in the face of additional planned
windpower what is going to provide our baseload?

I think we need to adjust from an 'Economy 7' world, where there's loads of
cheap coal-fired and nuclear power available overnight, so one where
more power comes in the middle of the day due to solar, and charging things
is more opportunistic based on conditions. EVs are perhaps better suited
to this than other consumers. The 'baseload' is then quick-response power
stations for covering for the gaps where there isn't enough sun/wind/etc to meet
demand. Today that's gas, maybe batteries or other storage will fill that
gap.

Theo

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Theo
Without offstreet parking, you need to do regular fillups, even fast
chargers or at work/etc. However if you don't have parking at home
you're already constrained, and maybe a future solution to that wouldn't
be onstreet parking but parking at a multi-storey around the corner
which can also charge. You might have to walk a few minutes to pick up
your car (or summon it, if self-driving finally becomes a thing), but
the streets stop being choked with parked cars.

Given the density of housing in many UK towns, which is preferable?
Knocking down some houses to provide that multi-story (that most wouldn't
want to live next door to). Or parking in the street?

Interesting fact in a flier from my local council, Wandsworth. They are
boasting about the highest number of chargers anywhere. 112. With a
population of over 1M.

Of course we could simply demolish our cities and start again. With plenty
off street parking for all. Every one with a decent garden where you could
grow your own. Wide enough main roads for all traffic including cycle and
bus etc lanes. But then the distance from A to B would be a great deal
bigger. And the cycling lobby would complain about that too.

[Robin]

On 05/09/2020 11:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
<snip>

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Interesting fact in a flier from my local council, Wandsworth. They are
boasting about the highest number of chargers anywhere. 112. With a
population of over 1M.

1M what?

[Peter Hill]

Post by Fredxx
<snip>

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Interesting fact in a flier from my local council, Wandsworth. They are
boasting about the highest number of chargers anywhere. 112. With a
population of over 1M.

1M what?

Rats or Pigeons, take your pick.

People.
2011 census was 306,995
mid 2016 estimate was 316,096
mid 2017 estimate was 323,257
mid 2018 326,474 of which 169905 are female and 104,600 are between 15
and 50 years old (ONS).
mid 2019 estimate 329,677

mid 2020 maybe 333,000?

They would have to be really fast breeders to have hit 1m starting from
1/3m in 2019. No time to bother about cars or charging points.

About 1/3 of population are women of childbearing age. To have hit 1m
today every woman would need to have had 6 kids since 2019. So that's 2
lots of triples for everyone.

Won't see the COVID-19 birthrate spike until Xmas.

As luck would have it, Wandsworth is a selectable place on ONS site.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/ukpopulationpyramidinteractive/2020-01-08

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Wandsworth

Maybe Wandsworth council is empire building and has quietly annexed some
adjoining boroughs? Anyone else got visions of the council offices
cruising around Greater London flying a Jolly Roger?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Peter Hill
They would have to be really fast breeders to have hit 1m starting from
1/3m in 2019. No time to bother about cars or charging points.

Well, this area is known as nappy valley. ;-)

Sorry for getting the figure wrong. But in the scale of things, makes
little difference. If everyone in the area thinking of buying a new or
near new car chose an EV, it would be chaos.

[Peter Hill]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Interesting fact in a flier from my local council, Wandsworth. They are
boasting about the highest number of chargers anywhere. 112. With a
population of over 1M.

Part of Wandsworth council that created that flyer doesn't know it's
arse from it's elbow.

As of Dec 2019, 230 lamp post chargers had been installed.
https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/transport/sustainable-travel/electric-vehicles/lamp-column-charging/

560 now and should be 700 by end of year.
https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/news/july-2020/electric-vehicle-boost-with-more-charging-sockets-in-putney-and-battersea/

So we now have proof that on street charging is available in UK cities
and is happening right now. You don't need a garage, or multi-storey, or
off street parking.

So now the questions are: How many work? How long do they take to get
fixed? Will they be maintained in future? Have there been any fights
over a lamppost?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Interesting fact in a flier from my local council, Wandsworth. They are
boasting about the highest number of chargers anywhere. 112. With a
population of over 1M.

Part of Wandsworth council that created that flyer doesn't know it's
arse from it's elbow.

No surprise there. You should see what they've done with low traffic
areas. Shifted the traffic from one residential area in the borough to
another.

Post by Peter Hill
As of Dec 2019, 230 lamp post chargers had been installed.
https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/transport/sustainable-travel/electric-vehicles/lamp-column-charging/
560 now and should be 700 by end of year.
https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/news/july-2020/electric-vehicle-boost-with-more-charging-sockets-in-putney-and-battersea/
So we now have proof that on street charging is available in UK cities
and is happening right now. You don't need a garage, or multi-storey, or
off street parking.
So now the questions are: How many work? How long do they take to get
fixed? Will they be maintained in future? Have there been any fights
over a lamppost?

Dunno. A quick check shows about a dozen cars parked between lamp posts.
And could the existing wiring cope with a charging point on every lamppost
anyway?

[tony sayer]

In article <rj0g62$og6$***@gioia.aioe.org>, Peter Hill <***@yahoo.com>
scribeth thus

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Interesting fact in a flier from my local council, Wandsworth. They are
boasting about the highest number of chargers anywhere. 112. With a
population of over 1M.

Part of Wandsworth council that created that flyer doesn't know it's
arse from it's elbow.
As of Dec 2019, 230 lamp post chargers had been installed.
https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/transport/sustainable-
travel/electric-vehicles/lamp-column-charging/
560 now and should be 700 by end of year.
https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/news/july-2020/electric-vehicle-boost-with-more-
charging-sockets-in-putney-and-battersea/
So we now have proof that on street charging is available in UK cities
and is happening right now. You don't need a garage, or multi-storey, or
off street parking.
So now the questions are: How many work? How long do they take to get
fixed? Will they be maintained in future? Have there been any fights
over a lamppost?

Some UK cities don't have enough bloody lampposts or room for them!....

https://goo.gl/maps/93iazAQRA7SFfuiC6

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by tony sayer
Some UK cities don't have enough bloody lampposts or room for them!....

Don't worry. If others follow the low traffic measures, your car street
car parking space will be replaced by a cycle lane. So no need to have a
car of any sort.

[tony sayer]

In article <NpF****@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo <theom+***@chi
ark.greenend.org.uk> scribeth thus

Post by Theo

Post by AJH

Post by Theo
And that's set against fast charge times, which are improving. It seems we
can push charge into a battery rather quickly, so why do you need the
complex logistics of battery swapping?

That's my take; with a 250 mile range my daughter's EV has never been on
a fast charger, only charged at home and a couple of top ups overnight
on my 13A three pin extension. If she ever wanted to do a long journey
she can borrow my car.

Because she has access to home charging, that works.
Without offstreet parking, you need to do regular fillups, even fast
chargers or at work/etc. However if you don't have parking at home you're
already constrained, and maybe a future solution to that wouldn't be
onstreet parking but parking at a multi-storey around the corner which can
also charge. You might have to walk a few minutes to pick up your car (or
summon it, if self-driving finally becomes a thing), but the streets stop
being choked with parked cars.
Or you simply don't own a car but use one when needed. Pre-pandemic, the
car-club model worked for some people.

Post by AJH
I can see the cost and complication of euro 6 diesels in commercial
vehicles making hydrogen fuel cell commercials look more competitive
over the next year or so.

I liken ICEs v EVs to hard drives v SSDs. Hard drives are amazing
mechanical things that manage to fly a piece of metal nanometres above
another piece of metal, and yet be robust against vibration, temperature,
etc. But it's much easier to just have a solid-state chip that does the
storage - no moving parts, no mechanical tolerances, just a standardised
silicon production line. Simple wins.

Post by AJH
The big concern is if China pulls out of the 3 (or 4) nuclear power
plants because of cost escalation in the face of additional planned
windpower what is going to provide our baseload?

What nuke plants are they, do tell?...

Post by Theo
I think we need to adjust from an 'Economy 7' world, where there's loads of
cheap coal-fired and nuclear power available overnight, so one where
more power comes in the middle of the day due to solar, and charging things
is more opportunistic based on conditions. EVs are perhaps better suited
to this than other consumers. The 'baseload' is then quick-response power
stations for covering for the gaps where there isn't enough sun/wind/etc to meet
demand. Today that's gas, maybe batteries or other storage will fill that
gap.
Theo

Theo..

We can some days hardly meet the existing grid demand as it is without
getting some extra coal power in!....

I really think that come a cold winter we're be fooked as regards
electricity supply and thing is we haven't had a hard winter for some
time now...

[AJH]

Post by tony sayer

Post by AJH
The big concern is if China pulls out of the 3 (or 4) nuclear power
plants because of cost escalation in the face of additional planned
windpower what is going to provide our baseload?

What nuke plants are they, do tell?...

Bradwell B, Hinkley Point C and Sizewell C

AIUI French designs funded and built principally by China

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by AJH

Post by tony sayer

Post by AJH
The big concern is if China pulls out of the 3 (or 4) nuclear power
plants because of cost escalation in the face of additional planned
windpower what is going to provide our baseload?

What nuke plants are they, do tell?...

Bradwell B, Hinkley Point C and Sizewell C
AIUI French designs funded and built principally by China

Bradwell B is proposed to be a Chinese design, HPC and SC have minority
Chinese funding. There's also the Moorside Energy Hub.

[tony sayer]

Post by AJH

Post by Theo
And that's set against fast charge times, which are improving. It seems we
can push charge into a battery rather quickly, so why do you need the
complex logistics of battery swapping?

That's my take; with a 250 mile range my daughter's EV has never been on
a fast charger, only charged at home and a couple of top ups overnight
on my 13A three pin extension. If she ever wanted to do a long journey
she can borrow my car.
I certainly wouldn't hesitate to drive an ev over an ic engined car but
it isn't going to happen in my remaining driving time simply from a
capital cost point of view, unless the Kona is offered at a reasonable
price by the leasing company in 3 years time. I think the battery will
still have some warranty left then.
As EV subsystems become more ubiquitous models using the same drive
train will feature them even if an IC engine and alternator is plonked in.
I can see the cost and complication of euro 6 diesels in commercial
vehicles making hydrogen fuel cell commercials look more competitive
over the next year or so.
The big concern is if China pulls out of the 3 (or 4) nuclear power
plants because of cost escalation in the face of additional planned
windpower what is going to provide our baseload?

Very good question when you know please let us all know 'cos at this
moment in time it looks like we'll be running short even on windy
days;(...

[AJH]

Post by tony sayer
Very good question when you know please let us all know 'cos at this
moment in time it looks like we'll be running short even on windy
days;(...

...but I thought you were in Oz.

[Tim+]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Makes absolutely no sense here given the mileage I do. Plus the fact there
isn't one to replace my daily driver. And just where would I charge it
given I park on the street?

Of course they won‘t suit everyone, any more than an archaic ICE powered
automatic barge, and yet that seems to be your repeated mantra.

Unlike you I don't see EVs as being the answer to everything.

In my case, it‘s got fuck all to do with them being them being the answer
to anything. They‘re just a fuck-load nicer to drive.

Your view is anything but the universal one. I'll say again - it would be
easy for a nice new and expensive EV to be better than what you're used to.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And if you think it's the only way to provide a nice smooth power flow,
you've simply not driven a decent car.

<yawn>
Missing the point again. Go out and try one.

Why? I'm not in the market for a new car. Indeed never have been. But in
any case, as I said, an EV simply wouldn't be practical for me anyway. In
the same way as it isn't for a large percentage of the population who
would find it difficult or impossible to charge one.

If you’ve not driven one you’re in no position to keep recommending
slushbox barges as being as good.

Tim

[Fredxx]

On 31/08/2020 18:29:13, Tim+ wrote:

<snip>

Post by Tim+
If you’ve not driven one you’re in no position to keep recommending
slushbox barges as being as good.

Calling nimble city petrol or hybrid cars "slushbox barges" is a claim
too far.

Heavy barges incorporating up to a ton batteries are hardly green given
the mix of electricity they charge their batteries from.

They also typically create more pollution than modern diesel in terms of
particulates from their tyres.

In short while I respect you like EVs, many of us don't have the
facilities to charge them and have greener credentials from running
alternatives.

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by Fredxx
<snip>

If you’ve not driven one you’re in no position to keep recommending
slushbox barges as being as good.

Calling nimble city petrol or hybrid cars "slushbox barges" is a claim
too far.
Heavy barges incorporating up to a ton batteries are hardly green given
the mix of electricity they charge their batteries from.
They also typically create more pollution than modern diesel in terms of
particulates from their tyres.
In short while I respect you like EVs, many of us don't have the
facilities to charge them and have greener credentials from running
alternatives.

Whenever there's Globalist pressure to roll some new environmental
idea out, you can bet that pressure will be succumbed to - with
totally unsatisfactory and very costly results. I'm old enough to have
seen the cycle repeat itself over countless times and I'm just hoping
I'll be dead before the bill comes in for this latest loony idea,
because even though I haven't incurred it, I just know they'll somehow
find a way to make me pay towards it.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Why? I'm not in the market for a new car. Indeed never have been. But in
any case, as I said, an EV simply wouldn't be practical for me anyway. In
the same way as it isn't for a large percentage of the population who
would find it difficult or impossible to charge one.

If you‘ve not driven one you‘re in no position to keep recommending
slushbox barges as being as good.

And since you've obviously never driven a decent IC engined car with a
decent modern auto, your views on electric being so much better can be
taken with a pinch of salt too.

[RJH]

Post by Tim+

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Makes absolutely no sense here given the mileage I do. Plus the fact there
isn't one to replace my daily driver. And just where would I charge it
given I park on the street?

Of course they won‘t suit everyone, any more than an archaic ICE powered
automatic barge, and yet that seems to be your repeated mantra.

Unlike you I don't see EVs as being the answer to everything.

In my case, it‘s got fuck all to do with them being them being the answer
to anything. They‘re just a fuck-load nicer to drive.

Your view is anything but the universal one. I'll say again - it would be
easy for a nice new and expensive EV to be better than what you're used to.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And if you think it's the only way to provide a nice smooth power flow,
you've simply not driven a decent car.

<yawn>
Missing the point again. Go out and try one.

Why? I'm not in the market for a new car. Indeed never have been. But in
any case, as I said, an EV simply wouldn't be practical for me anyway. In
the same way as it isn't for a large percentage of the population who
would find it difficult or impossible to charge one.

If you’ve not driven one you’re in no position to keep recommending
slushbox barges as being as good.

From what I gather, you're basing your opinion on a test drive. I think a
year's ownership and regular use might help?

[Tim+]

Post by RJH

Post by Tim+
If you’ve not driven one you’re in no position to keep recommending
slushbox barges as being as good.

From what I gather, you're basing your opinion on a test drive. I think a
year's ownership and regular use might help?

Fair comment but the step from ICE to EV is a quantum leap (in the popular
sense of the word) and whilst I have absolutely no doubt there will be new
problems to deal with, the step change in propulsive mechanism is so huge
it’s pointless for anyone to argue about how a “decent” ICE car would be as
good.

Apples and oranges. I have discovered that I much prefer oranges. It’s as
simple as that.

Tim

[RJH]

Post by Tim+

Post by RJH

Post by Tim+
If you’ve not driven one you’re in no position to keep recommending
slushbox barges as being as good.

From what I gather, you're basing your opinion on a test drive. I think a
year's ownership and regular use might help?

Fair comment but the step from ICE to EV is a quantum leap (in the popular
sense of the word) and whilst I have absolutely no doubt there will be new
problems to deal with, the step change in propulsive mechanism is so huge
it’s pointless for anyone to argue about how a “decent” ICE car would be as
good.
Apples and oranges. I have discovered that I much prefer oranges. It’s as
simple as that.

OK, your mind is set :-)

I think you're not persuaded by some of the more emotional reasons for using
ICEs. What you describe as a grinding, flailing etc I don't see - and if I
did, I'd fix it (most of the time). It's also an appreciation of the
engineering and the often elegant solutions - and I quite like the sound of
some ICEs. Then there's the whole evoking a time past etc. I could go on :-)

[Tim+]

Post by RJH

Post by Tim+

Post by RJH

Post by Tim+
If you’ve not driven one you’re in no position to keep recommending
slushbox barges as being as good.

From what I gather, you're basing your opinion on a test drive. I think a
year's ownership and regular use might help?

Fair comment but the step from ICE to EV is a quantum leap (in the popular
sense of the word) and whilst I have absolutely no doubt there will be new
problems to deal with, the step change in propulsive mechanism is so huge
it’s pointless for anyone to argue about how a “decent” ICE car would be as
good.
Apples and oranges. I have discovered that I much prefer oranges. It’s as
simple as that.

OK, your mind is set :-)
I think you're not persuaded by some of the more emotional reasons for using
ICEs. What you describe as a grinding, flailing etc I don't see - and if I
did, I'd fix it (most of the time). It's also an appreciation of the
engineering and the often elegant solutions - and I quite like the sound of
some ICEs. Then there's the whole evoking a time past etc. I could go on :-)

I wouldn’t be agin keeping an old ICE vehicle as a hobby and just for fun.
Be fun to show off to the grandchildren archaic practices like “changing
gear” etc. If it’s old enough, maybe even “pulling the choke out” and
“double de-clutching”. ;-). But for a daily driver, it’s EVs for me now.

Tim

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article

I wouldn‘t be agin keeping an old ICE vehicle as a hobby and just for fun.
Be fun to show off to the grandchildren archaic practices like ”changing
gear• etc. If it‘s old enough, maybe even ”pulling the choke out• and
”double de-clutching•. ;-). But for a daily driver, it‘s EVs for me now.

If your current vehicle requires double declutching and pulling a choke
out no wonder you appreciate an new EV. ;-) But surely you should be
comparing a milk float to that?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by RJH

Post by Tim+

Post by RJH

If you‘ve not driven one you‘re in no position to keep recommending
slushbox barges as being as good.

From what I gather, you're basing your opinion on a test drive. I
think a year's ownership and regular use might help?

Fair comment but the step from ICE to EV is a quantum leap (in the
popular sense of the word) and whilst I have absolutely no doubt there
will be new problems to deal with, the step change in propulsive
mechanism is so huge it‘s pointless for anyone to argue about how a
”decent• ICE car would be as good.
Apples and oranges. I have discovered that I much prefer oranges.
It‘s as simple as that.

OK, your mind is set :-)
I think you're not persuaded by some of the more emotional reasons for
using ICEs. What you describe as a grinding, flailing etc I don't see -
and if I did, I'd fix it (most of the time). It's also an appreciation
of the engineering and the often elegant solutions - and I quite like
the sound of some ICEs. Then there's the whole evoking a time past etc.
I could go on :-)

Quite again. Seems Tim is determined to persuade himself electric is so
much better in every way. Fine - but no need to try and convert others.

I'd ask again. After driving this - what - £30000 new electric vehicle,
did he also try a similar new petrol one?

Bit like those who don't like autos. Based on the one they drove many
years ago. Which was probably an old clunker anyway.

[Tim+]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by RJH

Post by Tim+

Post by RJH

If you‘ve not driven one you‘re in no position to keep recommending
slushbox barges as being as good.

From what I gather, you're basing your opinion on a test drive. I
think a year's ownership and regular use might help?

Fair comment but the step from ICE to EV is a quantum leap (in the
popular sense of the word) and whilst I have absolutely no doubt there
will be new problems to deal with, the step change in propulsive
mechanism is so huge it‘s pointless for anyone to argue about how a
”decent• ICE car would be as good.
Apples and oranges. I have discovered that I much prefer oranges.
It‘s as simple as that.

OK, your mind is set :-)
I think you're not persuaded by some of the more emotional reasons for
using ICEs. What you describe as a grinding, flailing etc I don't see -
and if I did, I'd fix it (most of the time). It's also an appreciation
of the engineering and the often elegant solutions - and I quite like
the sound of some ICEs. Then there's the whole evoking a time past etc.
I could go on :-)

Quite again. Seems Tim is determined to persuade himself electric is so
much better in every way. Fine - but no need to try and convert others.
I'd ask again. After driving this - what - £30000 new electric vehicle,
did he also try a similar new petrol one?

Why would I want to? Seriously, I’m not asking anyone to agree with me,
just pointing out the gulf between the mechanics of EVs and ICEs and why
I’ve no intention of buying a new EV again. Ignoring battery and charging
issues for the moment, I don’t think anyone can argue that an ICE is a
better method of moving a car than an electric motor. ICEs got very good
over the years of its development but only because there wasn’t a viable
alternative.

Battery and charging improvements now make EVs a viable alternative from
many folk like myself. Obviously not going to suit everyone but that’s
okay. In time though the ICE options are going to diminish/disappear.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Bit like those who don't like autos. Based on the one they drove many
years ago. Which was probably an old clunker anyway.

Love a good auto. My Jag was very nice. Love EV power/transmission more
though.

Tim

[Tim+]

Post by Tim+
Why would I want to? Seriously, I’m not asking anyone to agree with me,
just pointing out the gulf between the mechanics of EVs and ICEs and why
I’ve no intention of buying a new EV again.

Doh! Obviously meant ICE there!

Tim

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by RJH

If you‘ve not driven one you‘re in no position to keep recommending
slushbox barges as being as good.

From what I gather, you're basing your opinion on a test drive. I think a
year's ownership and regular use might help?

Quite. ;-)

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Tim+
A million moving parts flailing around generating lots of heat, noise,
fumes and with power characteristics so poor it needs electric motors just
to get it going and then lots of gears to compensate for the lousy rev
range.

Soul EV seems to be limited to 8,000 revs, which is possible for ICEs
(and at least one manufacturer has sold them). I expect the Soul would be
able to go over 100mph with 200 bhp, if only it had some more g***s.

[Tim+]

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Tim+
A million moving parts flailing around generating lots of heat, noise,
fumes and with power characteristics so poor it needs electric motors just
to get it going and then lots of gears to compensate for the lousy rev
range.

Soul EV seems to be limited to 8,000 revs, which is possible for ICEs

Of course. 8000 rpm of flailing reciprocating and rotating parts versus a
motor armature. The numbers aren’t really relevant as the motors aren’t
comparable.

Post by Nick Finnigan
(and at least one manufacturer has sold them). I expect the Soul would be
able to go over 100mph with 200 bhp, if only it had some more g***s.

Possibly but seriously, if it gets up to license losing territory
reasonably quickly who needs to go faster on public roads?

Tim

[Peter Hill]

Post by Tim+

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Tim+
A million moving parts flailing around generating lots of heat, noise,
fumes and with power characteristics so poor it needs electric motors just
to get it going and then lots of gears to compensate for the lousy rev
range.

Soul EV seems to be limited to 8,000 revs, which is possible for ICEs

Of course. 8000 rpm of flailing reciprocating and rotating parts versus a
motor armature. The numbers aren’t really relevant as the motors aren’t
comparable.

Post by Nick Finnigan
(and at least one manufacturer has sold them). I expect the Soul would be
able to go over 100mph with 200 bhp, if only it had some more g***s.

Possibly but seriously, if it gets up to license losing territory
reasonably quickly who needs to go faster on public roads?
Tim

All current EV's except 2 speed Porsche Taycan are top speed limited by
the electric motor's rev range and single fixed drive ratio. They have
plenty of power to go faster but the rotor would explode. Gearing them
for top speed that used all the power with a single fixed gear would
have a major detrimental impact on acceleration.

In the 1950's and early 1960's lots of Yanks used to option the high
ratio final drive on cars with 3 or 4 speed gearboxes just for
acceleration. Then they got 5 speed gearboxes, final drive options are
now unheard of.

Rimac - Don't add gears just make the electric motor with the required
rev range.

https://insideevs.com/features/436049/rimac-two-speed-gearbox-stupid-video/

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Tim+
A million moving parts flailing around generating lots of heat, noise,
fumes and with power characteristics so poor it needs electric motors just
to get it going and then lots of gears to compensate for the lousy rev
range.

Soul EV seems to be limited to 8,000 revs, which is possible for ICEs
(and at least one manufacturer has sold them). I expect the Soul would be
able to go over 100mph with 200 bhp, if only it had some more g***s.

Soul? Ha! Good choice of name for a vehicle with no soul whatsoever.
Only ICE cars have soul.

[Tim+]

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Tim+
A million moving parts flailing around generating lots of heat, noise,
fumes and with power characteristics so poor it needs electric motors just
to get it going and then lots of gears to compensate for the lousy rev
range.

Soul EV seems to be limited to 8,000 revs, which is possible for ICEs
(and at least one manufacturer has sold them). I expect the Soul would be
able to go over 100mph with 200 bhp, if only it had some more g***s.

Soul? Ha! Good choice of name for a vehicle with no soul whatsoever.
Only ICE cars have soul.

Yeah, I bet the dinosaurs said the same thing about mammals, even as they
watched the meteorite streaking through the sky overhead...

Tim

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 00:17:19 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

It‘s only when you drive an EV that you realise just how crap ICEs are for
powering vehicles.

My feeling is you need to get a decent one. With a modern auto
transmission.

I'd avoid such an abomination like the plague, Dave. Modern
multi-speed auto gearboxes like the ones ZF made are a dire liability
in waiting. They never got serviced 'cos the car manufacturers that
fitted them (like BMW among many others who should have known better)
claimed they didn't need any; not even an occasional oil change. Plus
you have all that electronic garbage inside there just waiting to go
'phut' and put you into 'limp-home mode' til you can find out which
ruinously expensive component has failed - you'd have to want your
head examined to own a car like that.

[tony sayer]

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 00:17:19 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

It‘s only when you drive an EV that you realise just how crap ICEs are for
powering vehicles.

My feeling is you need to get a decent one. With a modern auto
transmission.

I'd avoid such an abomination like the plague, Dave. Modern
multi-speed auto gearboxes like the ones ZF made are a dire liability
in waiting. They never got serviced 'cos the car manufacturers that
fitted them (like BMW among many others who should have known better)
claimed they didn't need any; not even an occasional oil change. Plus
you have all that electronic garbage inside there just waiting to go
'phut' and put you into 'limp-home mode' til you can find out which
ruinously expensive component has failed - you'd have to want your
head examined to own a car like that.

Yep!....

[Kellerman]

Post by Tim+

Post by Kellerman

Post by Theo

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

Toyota Hybrid.
Or possibly EV, if that works for you.
(slightly less of a known quantity long term, but much less mechanical to
need servicing/go wrong)
Theo

EV? still too expensive and not enough charge stations for me to have
one as my only vehicle.

Whilst those are two important considerations, having had a test drive in
an EV, I never want to drive an ICE powered abomination again!
It’s only when you drive an EV that you realise just how crap ICEs are for
powering vehicles.
Tim

Had a test ride on an electric motorcycle last year.
Complete hoot for a 100 mile range, rated as a 125cc but with the
performance of a 600cc --- for 100 miles absolute max, then several
hours to charge.

Ok as a commuter but really a bit too expensive for the range offered at
£10000 to £18000 new. Range really is a bit too short for touring or a
Sunday blat. Range would need to be 180 to 220 miles or so.
Range makes them ok for a commute but suitable ICE commute bikes are a
third to half the price new, significantly cheaper 2nd hand.
These particular ones (a Zero electric bike) are new to the market so
deprecation is unknown.
Conclusion? Great fun (for 100 miles) but I would wait about 5 years
before considering one. Currently range is too short, recharge time too
long and not enough re-charge stations. If the notice from above --
"Range" is the problem, as I mention 4 times :-)

[tony sayer]

Post by Tim+

Post by Kellerman

Post by Theo

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?

Toyota Hybrid.
Or possibly EV, if that works for you.
(slightly less of a known quantity long term, but much less mechanical to
need servicing/go wrong)
Theo

EV? still too expensive and not enough charge stations for me to have
one as my only vehicle.

Whilst those are two important considerations, having had a test drive in
an EV, I never want to drive an ICE powered abomination again!
It’s only when you drive an EV that you realise just how crap ICEs are for
powering vehicles.
Tim

Well my Audi turbo diesel is not a bad experience to drive, reliable and
46 to the gallon so not intending the change to EV anytime soon.

But electric drive and transmission, or lack thereof, is a very good
idea just a pity re the batteries and charging stuff.

Now when they have the sealed for life nuke car power plant :-)....

[D A Stocks]

Post by Tim+

Post by Kellerman
EV? still too expensive and not enough charge stations for me to have
one as my only vehicle.

Whilst those are two important considerations, having had a test drive in
an EV, I never want to drive an ICE powered abomination again!
It’s only when you drive an EV that you realise just how crap ICEs are for
powering vehicles.

Harry Metcalfe has just produced a Youtube video that sums up my position
very well:

I don't have charge at home facilities so my compromise is a Lexus hybrid,
purchased used because the depreciation from new would have been horrific. I
get the 'almost Rolls Royce level of refinement' driving around town and the
mechanical simplicity of the drive train makes even a clutch and manual box
look crude and unnecessarily complicated.

--
DAS

[RJH]

Post by D A Stocks

Post by Tim+

Post by Kellerman
EV? still too expensive and not enough charge stations for me to have
one as my only vehicle.

Whilst those are two important considerations, having had a test drive in
an EV, I never want to drive an ICE powered abomination again!
It’s only when you drive an EV that you realise just how crap ICEs are
for
powering vehicles.

Harry Metcalfe has just produced a Youtube video that sums up my position
http://youtu.be/k15n6QAe8cE

I'd agree with that bloke's appraisal. Wouldn't quite suit me as well as him,
but a hybrid with charging at local 'pumps' is a possibility, and would cover
most of my city use.

Post by D A Stocks
I don't have charge at home facilities so my compromise is a Lexus hybrid,
purchased used because the depreciation from new would have been horrific. I
get the 'almost Rolls Royce level of refinement' driving around town and the
mechanical simplicity of the drive train makes even a clutch and manual box
look crude and unnecessarily complicated.

I had looked at the BMW hybrid saloons - a mate had a 330 which seemed nice.
But I've driven so little the past 6 months it's not exactly front/centre of
my thinking right now . . .

[Theo]

Post by Kellerman
Nissan Leaf £29,000 new depreciating to £9000 at 3 years old 48,000
miles (source Autotrader, cars within a 50 mile radius of Peterborough)
Wow! pointless buying new £20,000 loss in 3 years!

Depreciation over 3 years: 69%

2017 Ford Focus 1.5
New price £21-23K
Autotrader price now starts £7k
Depreciation ~69%

It's a used car, it's what happens.

Theo

[Peter Hill]

Post by Martin James Smith
Hi all,
Which new compact car could I buy today would be least likely to give
me problems reliability-wise in future?
thanks,
Marty

Had my 196K mile, 27 year old 200SX in welding shop last week. Speaking
to guy that runs the place he says Toyota go forever.

I've had 4 coolant hoses fail in last year - it's way of asking for a
new silicone hose upgrade. Anyone of these events could have destroyed
the engine. Had a major oil leak from the oil cooler, the o-rings that
seal it have been discontinued. Tinkle on startup says it's going to
need big ends soon. I spend less a year than most people lose in
depreciation.

Reliability Index link below is based on claims and cost of repair. Cars
are out of makers warranty and will be 2nd owner so typically 3-6 years
old. Few people will be buying 3rd party warranty for cars over 8 years old.
https://www.reliabilityindex.com/top-100

Ford Fiesta/Focus the rear suspension bushes will fail at about 7-8
years old. Cheap to fix but needs a £100 tool - a big screw, extended
double length nut, large short tube and some discs. Without this tool it
is a much more expensive job, as Ford say take the whole rear suspension
off and use a press tool. 3-4 hours instead of 1 and labour is around
£100/hour.

Fiesta and BMW break coil springs. Fiesta £25 a pair, £50 to fit. BMW if
you have to ask you can't ...