Programming a new car battery??

[Cursitor Doom]

Gentlemen,

I'm hoping it was just a bad dream, but I vaguely recall recently hearing
somewhere that as from such and such a date, new car batteries will need
to be 'programmed into' the vehicles in which they are fitted. Now my
preferences are as follows (in descending order) -

1. It really was just a bad dream
2. It's true, but will only apply to new electric vehicles as from 2050
(I'll be dead by then easy)
3. It's true, and applies to *all* new vehicles from 2030 (I'll
*probably* be dead by then)
4. It's true and being introduced *this* year, but I die from Coronavirus
first.

Anyone know anything about this? They can't be talking about standard 12V
lead-acid batteries surely?

[Brian Reay]

Post by Cursitor Doom
Gentlemen,
I'm hoping it was just a bad dream, but I vaguely recall recently hearing
somewhere that as from such and such a date, new car batteries will need
to be 'programmed into' the vehicles in which they are fitted. Now my
preferences are as follows (in descending order) -
1. It really was just a bad dream
2. It's true, but will only apply to new electric vehicles as from 2050
(I'll be dead by then easy)
3. It's true, and applies to *all* new vehicles from 2030 (I'll
*probably* be dead by then)
4. It's true and being introduced *this* year, but I die from Coronavirus
first.
Anyone know anything about this? They can't be talking about standard 12V
lead-acid batteries surely?

It isn't as big a deal as it sounds, or need not be.

Some cars have a charging algorithm which can be adjusted if a different
spec battery is fitted. Fit the same spec battery and you should be fine.

I'm not sure which cars, someone mentioned BMWs to me but I expect there
are others.

[Steve H]

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Cursitor Doom
Gentlemen,
I'm hoping it was just a bad dream, but I vaguely recall recently hearing
somewhere that as from such and such a date, new car batteries will need
to be 'programmed into' the vehicles in which they are fitted. Now my
preferences are as follows (in descending order) -
1. It really was just a bad dream
2. It's true, but will only apply to new electric vehicles as from 2050
(I'll be dead by then easy)
3. It's true, and applies to *all* new vehicles from 2030 (I'll
*probably* be dead by then)
4. It's true and being introduced *this* year, but I die from Coronavirus
first.
Anyone know anything about this? They can't be talking about standard 12V
lead-acid batteries surely?

It isn't as big a deal as it sounds, or need not be.
Some cars have a charging algorithm which can be adjusted if a different
spec battery is fitted. Fit the same spec battery and you should be fine.
I'm not sure which cars, someone mentioned BMWs to me but I expect there
are others.

Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a computer
to tell it you've fitted it.

All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.

BMW have been doing it for years now.

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by Steve H
Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a computer
to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.
BMW have been doing it for years now.

Oh. In that case BMW's been struck off my list of new cars to look at
when I'm due to buy a replacement come September. Life's complicated
enough already.

[Fredxx]

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by Steve H
Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a computer
to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.
BMW have been doing it for years now.

Oh. In that case BMW's been struck off my list of new cars to look at
when I'm due to buy a replacement come September. Life's complicated
enough already.

That is why I buy second hand. You can look at reliability and user
reviews, something you can't do for new.

I also aim for a vehicle model that is being discontinued or undergoing
some change, hoping that many of the bugs would have been sorted.

[Steve H]

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by Steve H
Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a computer
to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.
BMW have been doing it for years now.

Oh. In that case BMW's been struck off my list of new cars to look at
when I'm due to buy a replacement come September. Life's complicated
enough already.

I have a new BMW on order (X1 PHEV) - the starter battery is the least
of your worries if one of those goes wrong!

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Steve H
Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a computer
to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.
BMW have been doing it for years now.

It needs to know the capacity of the battery for rather obvious reasons.

[Brian Reay]

Post by Steve H

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Cursitor Doom
Gentlemen,
I'm hoping it was just a bad dream, but I vaguely recall recently hearing
somewhere that as from such and such a date, new car batteries will need
to be 'programmed into' the vehicles in which they are fitted. Now my
preferences are as follows (in descending order) -
1. It really was just a bad dream
2. It's true, but will only apply to new electric vehicles as from 2050
(I'll be dead by then easy)
3. It's true, and applies to *all* new vehicles from 2030 (I'll
*probably* be dead by then)
4. It's true and being introduced *this* year, but I die from Coronavirus
first.
Anyone know anything about this? They can't be talking about standard 12V
lead-acid batteries surely?

It isn't as big a deal as it sounds, or need not be.
Some cars have a charging algorithm which can be adjusted if a
different spec battery is fitted. Fit the same spec battery and you
should be fine.
I'm not sure which cars, someone mentioned BMWs to me but I expect
there are others.

Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a computer
to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.
BMW have been doing it for years now.

Even a like for like replacement? (Same spec.)

[Steve H]

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H
Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a
computer to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.
BMW have been doing it for years now.

Even a like for like replacement? (Same spec.)

Yes, even like for like.

It works out the battery degredation over time, as Dave has pointed out,
it needs to know the capacity and predicted health of your battery -
mostly so you can guarantee it will re-start when it stops!

[Brian Reay]

Post by Steve H

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H
Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a
computer to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.
BMW have been doing it for years now.

Even a like for like replacement? (Same spec.)

Yes, even like for like.
It works out the battery degredation over time, as Dave has pointed out,
it needs to know the capacity and predicted health of your battery -
mostly so you can guarantee it will re-start when it stops!

Ok, thank you.

I'm less than convinced this is an 'improvement' ;-)

[Fredxx]

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H
Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a
computer to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.
BMW have been doing it for years now.

Even a like for like replacement? (Same spec.)

Yes, even like for like.
It works out the battery degredation over time, as Dave has pointed
out, it needs to know the capacity and predicted health of your
battery - mostly so you can guarantee it will re-start when it stops!

Ok, thank you.
I'm less than convinced this is an 'improvement' ;-)

I do wonder what difference in fuel economy this makes in the cars
concerned.

[Brian Reay]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H
Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a
computer to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.
BMW have been doing it for years now.

Even a like for like replacement? (Same spec.)

Yes, even like for like.
It works out the battery degredation over time, as Dave has pointed
out, it needs to know the capacity and predicted health of your
battery - mostly so you can guarantee it will re-start when it stops!

Ok, thank you.
I'm less than convinced this is an 'improvement' ;-)

I do wonder what difference in fuel economy this makes in the cars
concerned.

I assume that is behind it all and it is linked to the dreaded ‘smart
alternator’ issue.

The latter crops up in various motorhome forums in relation to charging the
leisure batteries in newer motorhomes.

I became aware of the battery programming issue when an acquaintance
mentioned he’d had a battery fail in a newish car. He wanted to replace it
with a larger capacity one but was warmed about it would need a visit to a
dealer etc. I thought he got round it by fitting a like for like
replacement but perhaps I am mistaken.

[Fredxx]

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Fredxx

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H
Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a
computer to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.
BMW have been doing it for years now.

Even a like for like replacement? (Same spec.)

Yes, even like for like.
It works out the battery degredation over time, as Dave has pointed
out, it needs to know the capacity and predicted health of your
battery - mostly so you can guarantee it will re-start when it stops!

Ok, thank you.
I'm less than convinced this is an 'improvement' ;-)

I do wonder what difference in fuel economy this makes in the cars
concerned.

I assume that is behind it all and it is linked to the dreaded ‘smart
alternator’ issue.
The latter crops up in various motorhome forums in relation to charging the
leisure batteries in newer motorhomes.
I became aware of the battery programming issue when an acquaintance
mentioned he’d had a battery fail in a newish car. He wanted to replace it
with a larger capacity one but was warmed about it would need a visit to a
dealer etc. I thought he got round it by fitting a like for like
replacement but perhaps I am mistaken.

I have seen a manual that mentions charging voltage, where the battery
under normal circumstances is held at 90% capacity. And then topped up
when the engine is on the 'overrun'.

It seemed a simple criterion of voltage and there are many references to
the relationship between terminal voltage and state of charge depending
on the chemistry.

In this instance I wouldn't have an issue in putting in place a larger
capacity battery.

I would thought the ultimate would be to use the alternator as a motor
in a pseudo hybrid capacity if ultimate fuel consumption was the aim.

In many instances the battery tray is limited in size, and the like for
like replacement is probably optimum for physical size in terms of
price. If one of larger capacity existed I would get that instead.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Fredxx
I would thought the ultimate would be to use the alternator as a motor
in a pseudo hybrid capacity if ultimate fuel consumption was the aim.

Devices that can be both motor and generator often combine the worst
aspects of both.

[newshound]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Fredxx
I would thought the ultimate would be to use the alternator as a motor
in a pseudo hybrid capacity if ultimate fuel consumption was the aim.

Devices that can be both motor and generator often combine the worst
aspects of both.

Isn't it all down to detailed design? The integrated motor assist (IMA)
unit on Honda hybrids seems pretty good to me. Starter, alternator, and
assist motor all in one unit on the crankshaft. Obviously, you want it
to be reliable but surely it's better than having an alternator and
starter motor hanging off separately, each with their own drive? (My
Jazz does have a conventional starter and battery in case the separate
battery fails, but only as a backup).

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by newshound
Isn't it all down to detailed design? The integrated motor assist (IMA)
unit on Honda hybrids seems pretty good to me. Starter, alternator, and
assist motor all in one unit on the crankshaft. Obviously, you want it
to be reliable but surely it's better than having an alternator and
starter motor hanging off separately, each with their own drive? (My
Jazz does have a conventional starter and battery in case the separate
battery fails, but only as a backup).

If there's one *genuinely* valuable feature I'd like to see introduced
(or re-introduced in this case) it's the starting handle. For me that
would be a truly useful addition. But sadly it's never going to happen
for obvious reasons. :-(

[Peter Hill]

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by newshound
Isn't it all down to detailed design? The integrated motor assist (IMA)
unit on Honda hybrids seems pretty good to me. Starter, alternator, and
assist motor all in one unit on the crankshaft. Obviously, you want it
to be reliable but surely it's better than having an alternator and
starter motor hanging off separately, each with their own drive? (My
Jazz does have a conventional starter and battery in case the separate
battery fails, but only as a backup).

If there's one *genuinely* valuable feature I'd like to see introduced
(or re-introduced in this case) it's the starting handle. For me that
would be a truly useful addition. But sadly it's never going to happen
for obvious reasons. :-(

When was the last time you couldn't start a car? [1]

A starting handle is impossible to fit on transverse engine, it would
have to go in though the front wheel.

There will be someone along in a bit to tell us you can start a car by
jacking one front wheel, putting it in gear and turning the wheel.

[1] Modern alarm systems drain batteries. The Mazda 323F I parked up the
road hasn't been run for 3 weeks. I better go charge the battery. When
the battery is low the security system drains it fully though the door
lock circuit! Too flat for a starting handle to work.

[Theo]

Post by Peter Hill
When was the last time you couldn't start a car? [1]
A starting handle is impossible to fit on transverse engine, it would
have to go in though the front wheel.
There will be someone along in a bit to tell us you can start a car by
jacking one front wheel, putting it in gear and turning the wheel.
[1] Modern alarm systems drain batteries. The Mazda 323F I parked up the
road hasn't been run for 3 weeks. I better go charge the battery. When
the battery is low the security system drains it fully though the door
lock circuit! Too flat for a starting handle to work.

Or simply have a second reserve battery installed by default. For instance
one of those LiPo jumpstart packs integrated at the factory. If you leave
the lights on and flatten the lead acid battery you can still start the car
and drive it somewhere to get the main battery replaced, with no messing
about with jump leads or starting handles.

Boats often do this, so you can always start the engine even if the cabin
loads drain the main battery.

Theo

[Tim+]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by newshound
Isn't it all down to detailed design? The integrated motor assist (IMA)
unit on Honda hybrids seems pretty good to me. Starter, alternator, and
assist motor all in one unit on the crankshaft. Obviously, you want it
to be reliable but surely it's better than having an alternator and
starter motor hanging off separately, each with their own drive? (My
Jazz does have a conventional starter and battery in case the separate
battery fails, but only as a backup).

If there's one *genuinely* valuable feature I'd like to see introduced
(or re-introduced in this case) it's the starting handle. For me that
would be a truly useful addition. But sadly it's never going to happen
for obvious reasons. :-(

When was the last time you couldn't start a car? [1]
A starting handle is impossible to fit on transverse engine, it would
have to go in though the front wheel.

I seem to recall that you could get a starting handle kit for the original
Mini. I think you had to put it on full lock to get access to the socket
but it was possible.

Tim

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Cursitor Doom
If there's one *genuinely* valuable feature I'd like to see introduced
(or re-introduced in this case) it's the starting handle. For me that
would be a truly useful addition. But sadly it's never going to happen
for obvious reasons. :-(

When was the last time you couldn't start a car? [1]
A starting handle is impossible to fit on transverse engine, it would
have to go in though the front wheel.

And most engines these days are large and high compression, so the likes
of Doom wouldn't have the strength to start it.

Post by Peter Hill
There will be someone along in a bit to tell us you can start a car by
jacking one front wheel, putting it in gear and turning the wheel.

You certainly can with the original 850 Mini. ;-)

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And most engines these days are large and high compression, so the likes
of Doom wouldn't have the strength to start it.

In that case my third improvement suggestion for a modern car would be to
re-introduce the over-square engine.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And most engines these days are large and high compression, so the
likes of Doom wouldn't have the strength to start it.

In that case my third improvement suggestion for a modern car would be
to re-introduce the over-square engine.

So which large engine that was oversquare came with a starting handle to
base that on?

[Peter Hill]

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And most engines these days are large and high compression, so the likes
of Doom wouldn't have the strength to start it.

In that case my third improvement suggestion for a modern car would be to
re-introduce the over-square engine.

Car engines back in the days when hand cranks were fitted were long
stoke and under-square.

[Ramsman]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And most engines these days are large and high compression, so the likes
of Doom wouldn't have the strength to start it.

In that case my third improvement suggestion for a modern car would be to
re-introduce the over-square engine.

Car engines back in the days when hand cranks were fitted were long
stoke and under-square.

And with lower compression ratios.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Ramsman

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And most engines these days are large and high compression, so the likes
of Doom wouldn't have the strength to start it.

In that case my third improvement suggestion for a modern car would be to
re-introduce the over-square engine.

Car engines back in the days when hand cranks were fitted were long
stoke and under-square.

And with lower compression ratios.

Quite. And even then, a large engine could be very hard work indeed to
start on the handle. But one did come in handy for setting the valve
clearance and points, etc.

Of course many on here look at the past through rose tinted specs.
Forgetting how quickly engines used to wear out. And needing routine valve
grinds, etc. And, of course, just how dog slow the average car used to be.
A quick saloon car from the 50s would be left for dead away from the
lights by many a shopping hatch now.

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by Peter Hill
[1] Modern alarm systems drain batteries. The Mazda 323F I parked up the
road hasn't been run for 3 weeks. I better go charge the battery. When
the battery is low the security system drains it fully though the door
lock circuit! Too flat for a starting handle to work.

In that case my second suggestion for improvement would be to re-
introduce the magneto. Magnetos don't care how flat the battery is.

[Peter Hill]

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by Peter Hill
[1] Modern alarm systems drain batteries. The Mazda 323F I parked up the
road hasn't been run for 3 weeks. I better go charge the battery. When
the battery is low the security system drains it fully though the door
lock circuit! Too flat for a starting handle to work.

In that case my second suggestion for improvement would be to re-
introduce the magneto. Magnetos don't care how flat the battery is.

Magnetos are pretty crap at hand cranking speed. Coil and points has a
much better spark for starting by hand crank. Mag is a bit better at
small motorbike (650cc twin) kick start speed, which is part of reason
they lasted post WWII on bikes but had been removed from nearly all cars
in the late 30's.

Mags are not reliable, the capacitor in the rotor windings fail, almost
like they have a timer built in. Then you need a rewound rotor.

Honda have fitted a self generating CDI unit to many bikes since the mid
1980's.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <r75hc9$oi2$***@dont-email.me>, Cursitor Doom <***@not4mail.com>
writes

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by newshound
Isn't it all down to detailed design? The integrated motor assist (IMA)
unit on Honda hybrids seems pretty good to me. Starter, alternator, and
assist motor all in one unit on the crankshaft. Obviously, you want it
to be reliable but surely it's better than having an alternator and
starter motor hanging off separately, each with their own drive? (My
Jazz does have a conventional starter and battery in case the separate
battery fails, but only as a backup).

If there's one *genuinely* valuable feature I'd like to see introduced
(or re-introduced in this case) it's the starting handle. For me that
would be a truly useful addition. But sadly it's never going to happen
for obvious reasons. :-(

As second *genuinely* valuable feature would be if it was mandatory for
it to be possible (nay, EASY!) to change any of the light bulbs without
first having to dismantle half the car.

[Steve H]

Post by Ian Jackson
As second *genuinely* valuable feature would be if it was mandatory for
it to be possible (nay, EASY!) to change any of the light bulbs without
first having to dismantle half the car.

Light bulbs?

How very last decade.

LEDs in all units on my new car.

[unknown]

Post by Steve H

Post by Ian Jackson
As second *genuinely* valuable feature would be if it was mandatory
for it to be possible (nay, EASY!) to change any of the light bulbs
without first having to dismantle half the car.

Light bulbs?
How very last decade.
LEDs in all units on my new car.

Seen the price of them as replacements? Ask an Astra K (mk7) driver how
reliable they are and how much they cost out of warranty.
I can see 5 year old cars been written off because the headlights are
smashed or not repairable.
What's needed is a standard LED lamp unit (just the light bit) that can
be replaced by any garage or competent owner without using the
facilities of a full electronics workshop.

[Peter Hill]

Post by unknown

Post by Steve H

Post by Ian Jackson
As second *genuinely* valuable feature would be if it was mandatory
for it to be possible (nay, EASY!) to change any of the light bulbs
without first having to dismantle half the car.

Light bulbs?
How very last decade.
LEDs in all units on my new car.

Seen the price of them as replacements? Ask an Astra K (mk7) driver how
reliable they are and how much they cost out of warranty.
I can see 5 year old cars been written off because the headlights are
smashed or not repairable.
What's needed is a standard LED lamp unit (just the light bit) that can
be replaced by any garage or competent owner without using the
facilities of a full electronics workshop.

The LED current regulator aka "ballast" is usually mounted in harms way
so doesn't survive impact either. Not cheap. Well it is cheap maybe £10
of parts when bought by the 1000 but like so much vehicle electronics
they have 1000% markup on the assembly and no standards so each maker's
"ballast" is unique.

[unknown]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by unknown

Post by Steve H

Post by Ian Jackson
As second *genuinely* valuable feature would be if it was mandatory
for it to be possible (nay, EASY!) to change any of the light bulbs
without first having to dismantle half the car.

Light bulbs?
How very last decade.
LEDs in all units on my new car.

Seen the price of them as replacements? Ask an Astra K (mk7) driver
how reliable they are and how much they cost out of warranty.
I can see 5 year old cars been written off because the headlights are
smashed or not repairable.
What's needed is a standard LED lamp unit (just the light bit) that
can be replaced by any garage or competent owner without using the
facilities of a full electronics workshop.

The LED current regulator aka "ballast" is usually mounted in harms way
so doesn't survive impact either. Not cheap. Well it is cheap maybe £10
of parts when bought by the 1000 but like so much vehicle electronics
they have 1000% markup on the assembly and no standards so each maker's
"ballast" is unique.

Oh yes --- some years ago a pheasant said "Hi" to one of the HID
headlights on a 2yr old Vectra CDX estate I had. Cost mega cash to
fix/replace the smashed left hand headlight and ballast. Unfortunately
the right hand one was also damaged in the same incident bit didn't show
up straight away.
At the time ballasts cost much more than they do today. The right hand
one turned out to be cracked and needed duct tape to keep the water out.
Was like that when I sold it 8 years later.

[critcher]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by newshound
Isn't it all down to detailed design? The integrated motor assist (IMA)
unit on Honda hybrids seems pretty good to me. Starter, alternator, and
assist motor all in one unit on the crankshaft. Obviously, you want it
to be reliable but surely it's better than having an alternator and
starter motor hanging off separately, each with their own drive? (My
Jazz does have a conventional starter and battery in case the separate
battery fails, but only as a backup).

If there's one *genuinely* valuable feature I'd like to see introduced
(or re-introduced in this case) it's the starting handle. For me that
would be a truly useful addition. But sadly it's never going to happen
for obvious reasons. :-(

As second *genuinely* valuable feature would be if it was mandatory
for it to be possible (nay, EASY!) to change any of the light bulbs
without first having to dismantle half the car.

Absolutely, and when we go back to the old filament lamps we can get rid
of the blinding led lights on modern cars.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by critcher
Absolutely, and when we go back to the old filament lamps we can get rid
of the blinding led lights on modern cars.

Back to the days of not being able to see where you're going? ;-)

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H
Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a
computer to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.
BMW have been doing it for years now.

Even a like for like replacement? (Same spec.)

Yes, even like for like.
It works out the battery degredation over time, as Dave has pointed
out, it needs to know the capacity and predicted health of your
battery - mostly so you can guarantee it will re-start when it stops!

Ok, thank you.
I'm less than convinced this is an 'improvement' ;-)

I do wonder what difference in fuel economy this makes in the cars
concerned.

Likely just as much to do with emissions. An engine idling is at its worst
for those. So makes sense to switch it off.

[critcher]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Fredxx

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H
Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a
computer to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.
BMW have been doing it for years now.

Even a like for like replacement? (Same spec.)

Yes, even like for like.
It works out the battery degredation over time, as Dave has pointed
out, it needs to know the capacity and predicted health of your
battery - mostly so you can guarantee it will re-start when it stops!

Ok, thank you.
I'm less than convinced this is an 'improvement' ;-)

I do wonder what difference in fuel economy this makes in the cars
concerned.

Likely just as much to do with emissions. An engine idling is at its worst
for those. So makes sense to switch it off.

For a sometimes user, the start/stop feature is a pita.

Easy to take a fence down if you are not carefull.

[Ian Jackson]

Post by critcher

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Fredxx

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Steve H
Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a
computer to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charing and start / stop systems.
BMW have been doing it for years now.

Even a like for like replacement? (Same spec.)

Yes, even like for like.
It works out the battery degredation over time, as Dave has pointed
out, it needs to know the capacity and predicted health of your
battery - mostly so you can guarantee it will re-start when it stops!

Ok, thank you.
I'm less than convinced this is an 'improvement' ;-)

I do wonder what difference in fuel economy this makes in the cars
concerned.

Likely just as much to do with emissions. An engine idling is at its worst
for those. So makes sense to switch it off.

For a sometimes user, the start/stop feature is a pita.
Easy to take a fence down if you are not carefull.

Don't you have to have clutch pressed down for it to start?

In January, I got a new car - but as I haven't driven it for at least
two months, I've forgotten the feel of auto-stop-start sequence.
Whatever it is, I don't like it, and I usually disable it.

It's not that I don't believe in switching off when stationary - it's
just that I prefer to be in charge of it. The trouble is, if I disable
it, and later do a manual switch-off, when I do a manual start again it
reverts to auto. [In the myriad of menus, there's almost certainly a
permanent disable function.]

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by critcher
Easy to take a fence down if you are not carefull.

Don't you have to have clutch pressed down for it to start?

And the brakes on if an auto?

[Steve H]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by critcher
Easy to take a fence down if you are not carefull.

Don't you have to have clutch pressed down for it to start?

And the brakes on if an auto?

BMW autos with auto handbrake do all this for you. Come to a halt on the
footbrake and it'll switch off the engine. It re-starts either when you
put your foot on the throttle or if you stick the auto shifter into
sport mode.

I find it very easy to live with and can't understand the obsession
people have with switching it off.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Steve H

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by critcher
Easy to take a fence down if you are not carefull.

Don't you have to have clutch pressed down for it to start?

And the brakes on if an auto?

BMW autos with auto handbrake do all this for you. Come to a halt on the
footbrake and it'll switch off the engine. It re-starts either when you
put your foot on the throttle or if you stick the auto shifter into
sport mode.
I find it very easy to live with and can't understand the obsession
people have with switching it off.

I've not owned a car with it. Older brother bought a used Audi a couple of
years ago which has. He was very against it at first, but now just lets it
get on with it. The battery problems he expected haven't happened.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by critcher

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Likely just as much to do with emissions. An engine idling is at its worst
for those. So makes sense to switch it off.

For a sometimes user, the start/stop feature is a pita.
Easy to take a fence down if you are not carefull.

How?

[critcher]

Post by critcher

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Likely just as much to do with emissions. An engine idling is at its worst
for those. So makes sense to switch it off.

For a sometimes user, the start/stop feature is a pita.
Easy to take a fence down if you are not carefull.

How?

By stopping the car in a car park, the engine stops, then you push the
clutch in to take it out of gear, the car restarts, makes you wonder
what the fuck is happening and you lose control and let the clutch out
while still in gear.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by critcher

Post by critcher

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Likely just as much to do with emissions. An engine idling is at its worst
for those. So makes sense to switch it off.

For a sometimes user, the start/stop feature is a pita.
Easy to take a fence down if you are not carefull.

How?

By stopping the car in a car park, the engine stops, then you push the
clutch in to take it out of gear, the car restarts, makes you wonder
what the fuck is happening and you lose control and let the clutch out
while still in gear.

Best to give up driving when senility is taking over?

[critcher]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by critcher

Post by critcher

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Likely just as much to do with emissions. An engine idling is at its worst
for those. So makes sense to switch it off.

For a sometimes user, the start/stop feature is a pita.
Easy to take a fence down if you are not carefull.

How?

By stopping the car in a car park, the engine stops, then you push the
clutch in to take it out of gear, the car restarts, makes you wonder
what the fuck is happening and you lose control and let the clutch out
while still in gear.

Best to give up driving when senility is taking over?

Bit nasty that  brother !

[Kumquat May]

Post by critcher

Post by critcher

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Likely just as much to do with emissions. An engine idling is at its worst
for those. So makes sense to switch it off.

For a sometimes user, the start/stop feature is a pita.
Easy to take a fence down if you are not carefull.

How?

By stopping the car in a car park, the engine stops, then you push the
clutch in to take it out of gear, the car restarts, makes you wonder
what the fuck is happening and you lose control and let the clutch out
while still in gear.

The engine won't stop unless it's in neutral already so you don't need
to "take it out of gear". If the engine is off, you don't need the
clutch to move the gear stick anyway, and the only way your scenario
could happen is if you stall the engine?

Not worth worrying about.

[Kumquat May]

Post by critcher
Easy to take a fence down if you are not carefull.

Have you bypassed the clutch pedal switch?

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by Steve H
It works out the battery degredation over time, as Dave has pointed out,
it needs to know the capacity and predicted health of your battery -
mostly so you can guarantee it will re-start when it stops!

So the car is so smart it can tell how long it's going to be before you
take it for another run? Wow! :-D

[D A Stocks]

Post by Steve H
Some cars won't accept a new battery unless you hook it up to a computer
to tell it you've fitted it.
All to do with smart charging and start / stop systems.

My general dislike of the stop / stop systems I've met was one reason I went
for a fairly old-school Lexus hybrid for my latest car. It completely
bypasses all this and, in many ways, is a far simpler drivetrain then a
conventional clutch and gearbox.

--
DAS

[unknown]

Post by Cursitor Doom
Gentlemen,
I'm hoping it was just a bad dream, but I vaguely recall recently hearing
somewhere that as from such and such a date, new car batteries will need
to be 'programmed into' the vehicles in which they are fitted. Now my
preferences are as follows (in descending order) -
1. It really was just a bad dream
2. It's true, but will only apply to new electric vehicles as from 2050
(I'll be dead by then easy)
3. It's true, and applies to *all* new vehicles from 2030 (I'll
*probably* be dead by then)
4. It's true and being introduced *this* year, but I die from Coronavirus
first.
Anyone know anything about this? They can't be talking about standard 12V
lead-acid batteries surely?

Yes, there is a current sensor in series with the negative terminal.
It's used to measure the current in/out of the battery and thus its
state of charge. Important in the new world of stop/start engines . . .
The cars relevant ECU has to be reset otherwise the stop/start wont work.

look here:
https://www.samarins.com/glossary/battery-sensor.html
and here>
https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/products-and-services/passenger-cars-and-light-commercial-vehicles/interior-and-body-systems/body-electronics/electronic-battery-sensor/

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by unknown
Yes, there is a current sensor in series with the negative terminal.
It's used to measure the current in/out of the battery and thus its
state of charge. Important in the new world of stop/start engines . . .
The cars relevant ECU has to be reset otherwise the stop/start wont work.

Thanks - guessed it had to be something sophisticated.

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by unknown
Yes, there is a current sensor in series with the negative terminal.
It's used to measure the current in/out of the battery and thus its
state of charge. Important in the new world of stop/start engines . . .
The cars relevant ECU has to be reset otherwise the stop/start wont work.

Thanks - guessed it had to be something sophisticated.

You call it "sophisticated" I call it *complicated* - and modern cars are
*far* too complicated IMO. It'll be interesting to see if the forthcoming
economic depression results in a return to fewer frills and less to go
wrong.

[Cursitor Doom]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:25:52 +0100, Kellerman

Post by unknown
Yes, there is a current sensor in series with the negative terminal.
It's used to measure the current in/out of the battery and thus its
state of charge. Important in the new world of stop/start engines . . .
The cars relevant ECU has to be reset otherwise the stop/start wont work.

Sounds like just yet another over-complication which when it eventually
goes wrong will add to the cost of that car's maintenance.

[Peter Hill]

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:25:52 +0100, Kellerman

Post by unknown
Yes, there is a current sensor in series with the negative terminal.
It's used to measure the current in/out of the battery and thus its
state of charge. Important in the new world of stop/start engines . . .
The cars relevant ECU has to be reset otherwise the stop/start wont work.

Sounds like just yet another over-complication which when it eventually
goes wrong will add to the cost of that car's maintenance.

Unless someone like BBA-reman, apt electronics, actronics etc can fix
it, it will just get crushed.
http://www.bba-reman.com/gb/auto-mine/index.aspx
https://www.atpelectronics.co.uk/
https://www.actronics.co.uk/

30 something years ago I saw a then very recent BMW 635 being sold for a
pittance £1500. The drivers seat was fully electrical adjustment, it
didn't work so they were looking for a buyer that fitted in the position
it was stuck in.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Peter Hill
30 something years ago I saw a then very recent BMW 635 being sold for a
pittance £1500. The drivers seat was fully electrical adjustment, it
didn't work so they were looking for a buyer that fitted in the position
it was stuck in.

Says much about the seller if they couldn't source the used parts needed
to fix it. And by recent you mean 20 years old?

[Peter Hill]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Peter Hill
30 something years ago I saw a then very recent BMW 635 being sold for a
pittance £1500. The drivers seat was fully electrical adjustment, it
didn't work so they were looking for a buyer that fitted in the position
it was stuck in.

Says much about the seller if they couldn't source the used parts needed
to fix it. And by recent you mean 20 years old?

No I mean a late E28 being sold around 1990, so only 2-3 years old.
AFAIK power seats were an option from 1987 on.