Outwitting Your Vehicle's 'Brain'

[Chris M. White]

Guys,

I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at. Even for
a Merc main dealer it's half a day's work and requires several special
service tools. I was quoted over 500 quid to fix it! +VAT!!

So I've come up with an ingenious work-around I'd like to run past you
all; see if there's any adverse consequences I haven't thought of. The
car's main CPU thinks the rear n/s wheel is losing grip, because it's
sensing (wrongly) that the speed of that wheel is diffrerent to the
speed of the one on the opposite side. How about I snip the feed from
the n/s sensor and connect it in parallel with the feed from the o/s
one? That way, the CPU will see the signals as perfectly in synch. The
sensor on the 'good side' stub axle will then be supplying speed info
for *both* sides and the duff side will be snipped out of circuit
altogether.
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

[Tim+]

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at. Even for
a Merc main dealer it's half a day's work and requires several special
service tools. I was quoted over 500 quid to fix it! +VAT!!
So I've come up with an ingenious work-around I'd like to run past you
all; see if there's any adverse consequences I haven't thought of. The
car's main CPU thinks the rear n/s wheel is losing grip, because it's
sensing (wrongly) that the speed of that wheel is diffrerent to the
speed of the one on the opposite side. How about I snip the feed from
the n/s sensor and connect it in parallel with the feed from the o/s
one? That way, the CPU will see the signals as perfectly in synch. The
sensor on the 'good side' stub axle will then be supplying speed info
for *both* sides and the duff side will be snipped out of circuit
altogether.
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

Probably not as issue on a vehicle that age but I imagine that might upset
any stability control software (or at least stop it working properly).

Whilst I take your point that many older cars didn’t have ABS, I think as
far as MOT is concerned, if it was fitted, it has to work.

Might be worth getting a second opinion on the work involved. Hard to
believe that any work on a stub axle can be that complicated. Have you
searched YouTube?

This any help?

Tim

[Fredxx]

Post by Tim+

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at. Even for
a Merc main dealer it's half a day's work and requires several special
service tools. I was quoted over 500 quid to fix it! +VAT!!
So I've come up with an ingenious work-around I'd like to run past you
all; see if there's any adverse consequences I haven't thought of. The
car's main CPU thinks the rear n/s wheel is losing grip, because it's
sensing (wrongly) that the speed of that wheel is diffrerent to the
speed of the one on the opposite side. How about I snip the feed from
the n/s sensor and connect it in parallel with the feed from the o/s
one? That way, the CPU will see the signals as perfectly in synch. The
sensor on the 'good side' stub axle will then be supplying speed info
for *both* sides and the duff side will be snipped out of circuit
altogether.
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

Probably not as issue on a vehicle that age but I imagine that might upset
any stability control software (or at least stop it working properly).
Whilst I take your point that many older cars didn’t have ABS, I think as
far as MOT is concerned, if it was fitted, it has to work.

The ABS system is not tested in an MOT. All the tester wants to see is
the light coming on for a second or 2 on the turn of the ignition switch
and then go out.

Post by Tim+
Might be worth getting a second opinion on the work involved. Hard to
believe that any work on a stub axle can be that complicated. Have you
searched YouTube?
This any help? http://youtu.be/-LZFH3npitg

I am inclined to agree.

[Scott]

Post by Tim+

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at. Even for
a Merc main dealer it's half a day's work and requires several special
service tools. I was quoted over 500 quid to fix it! +VAT!!
So I've come up with an ingenious work-around I'd like to run past you
all; see if there's any adverse consequences I haven't thought of. The
car's main CPU thinks the rear n/s wheel is losing grip, because it's
sensing (wrongly) that the speed of that wheel is diffrerent to the
speed of the one on the opposite side. How about I snip the feed from
the n/s sensor and connect it in parallel with the feed from the o/s
one? That way, the CPU will see the signals as perfectly in synch. The
sensor on the 'good side' stub axle will then be supplying speed info
for *both* sides and the duff side will be snipped out of circuit
altogether.
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

Probably not as issue on a vehicle that age but I imagine that might upset
any stability control software (or at least stop it working properly).
Whilst I take your point that many older cars didn’t have ABS, I think as
far as MOT is concerned, if it was fitted, it has to work.

Also, as a modification I assume it would require to be declared to
the insurers. I would certainly speak to the underwriter first.

Post by Tim+
Might be worth getting a second opinion on the work involved. Hard to
believe that any work on a stub axle can be that complicated. Have you
searched YouTube?
This any help? http://youtu.be/-LZFH3npitg
Tim

[Theo]

Post by Scott
Also, as a modification I assume it would require to be declared to
the insurers. I would certainly speak to the underwriter first.

I'm not sure that's a 'modification' on insurers' usual lists, but 'tampered
with the braking system' is not a good look, either to insurers or if it
came up in court. And so if there was an accident I could well imagine the
insurer declining to pay out, which would leave you liable for third party
losses (don't drive behind a supercar, you can't afford it).

Theo

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Theo

Post by Scott
Also, as a modification I assume it would require to be declared to
the insurers. I would certainly speak to the underwriter first.

I'm not sure that's a 'modification' on insurers' usual lists, but 'tampered
with the braking system' is not a good look, either to insurers or if it
came up in court. And so if there was an accident I could well imagine the
insurer declining to pay out, which would leave you liable for third party
losses (don't drive behind a supercar, you can't afford it).

Insurers are not allowed to decline to pay out for third party losses
because of the condition of the vehicle causing the losses.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/part/VI/crossheading/compulsory-insurance-or-security-against-thirdparty-risks/enacted

148 (2) (b)

[Theo]

Post by Nick Finnigan
Insurers are not allowed to decline to pay out for third party losses
because of the condition of the vehicle causing the losses.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/part/VI/crossheading/compulsory-insurance-or-security-against-thirdparty-risks/enacted

That is presumably so if you're hit by an unroadworthy vehicle the insurance
company can't say 'sorry, unroadworthy, we're not paying'. But it doesn't
mean they can't (try to) recover those costs from the person holding the
insurance policy for that vehicle, because they are in breach of the
insurance T&C and in doing so have caused the insurer a substantial loss.

Theo

[tim...]

Post by Theo

Post by Nick Finnigan
Insurers are not allowed to decline to pay out for third party losses
because of the condition of the vehicle causing the losses.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/part/VI/crossheading/compulsory-insurance-or-security-against-thirdparty-risks/enacted

That is presumably so if you're hit by an unroadworthy vehicle the insurance
company can't say 'sorry, unroadworthy, we're not paying'. But it doesn't
mean they can't (try to) recover those costs from the person holding the
insurance policy for that vehicle, because they are in breach of the
insurance T&C and in doing so have caused the insurer a substantial loss.

The sort of person who routinely drives around in an un-roadworthy car is
unlikely to have sufficient funds to be worth suing

[Rod Speed]

Post by Theo

Post by Nick Finnigan
Insurers are not allowed to decline to pay out for third party losses
because of the condition of the vehicle causing the losses.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/part/VI/crossheading/compulsory-insurance-or-security-against-thirdparty-risks/enacted

That is presumably so if you're hit by an unroadworthy vehicle the insurance
company can't say 'sorry, unroadworthy, we're not paying'. But it doesn't
mean they can't (try to) recover those costs from the person holding the
insurance policy for that vehicle, because they are in breach of the
insurance T&C and in doing so have caused the insurer a substantial loss.

That assumes the unroadworthy vehicle is insured.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 06:39:04 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest trollshit unread>

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Theo

Post by Nick Finnigan
Insurers are not allowed to decline to pay out for third party losses
because of the condition of the vehicle causing the losses.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/part/VI/crossheading/compulsory-insurance-or-security-against-thirdparty-risks/enacted

That is presumably so if you're hit by an unroadworthy vehicle the insurance
company can't say 'sorry, unroadworthy, we're not paying'. But it doesn't
mean they can't (try to) recover those costs from the person holding the
insurance policy for that vehicle, because they are in breach of the
insurance T&C and in doing so have caused the insurer a substantial loss.

No, they are not in breach of the T&C. See above.

[Theo]

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Theo
That is presumably so if you're hit by an unroadworthy vehicle the insurance
company can't say 'sorry, unroadworthy, we're not paying'. But it doesn't
mean they can't (try to) recover those costs from the person holding the
insurance policy for that vehicle, because they are in breach of the
insurance T&C and in doing so have caused the insurer a substantial loss.

No, they are not in breach of the T&C. See above.

If your policy is invalidated, for example by not telling the insurer about
modifications, and they are forced to pay out, they will seek to recover
costs from you:


https://www.directline.com/assets/pdf/car-insurance-policy-document.pdf

Taking care of your car
You and any person who is covered by this

Post by Nick Finnigan
Make sure your car is roadworthy.

Modifications to your car
Modifications are changes to your car’s standard
specification, including optional extras.If you wish to modify your car, you
must tell us what modifications you want to make, and we must agree to them
beforehand.
Modifications include changes to the appearance or the performance of your
car, including wheels, suspension, bodywork, engine and any additional
software features (excluding those provided free as software updates by the
manufacturer). This is not a complete list. If you don’t provide correct and
complete information or inform us of any changes, this could invalidate your
policy or mean we don’t pay claims in full or at all.


Payments made outside the terms of the policy
If we have to make a payment that isn’t covered by this policy because we’re
required to do so under any country’s laws, we may ask you (or the person
who is legally responsible) to pay us back any payment made that isn’t
covered by this policy. This includes any amount that we have to pay because
you don’t provide accurate and complete information.

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Theo

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Theo
That is presumably so if you're hit by an unroadworthy vehicle the insurance
company can't say 'sorry, unroadworthy, we're not paying'. But it doesn't
mean they can't (try to) recover those costs from the person holding the
insurance policy for that vehicle, because they are in breach of the
insurance T&C and in doing so have caused the insurer a substantial loss.

No, they are not in breach of the T&C. See above.

If your policy is invalidated, for example by not telling the insurer about
modifications, and they are forced to pay out, they will seek to recover
https://www.directline.com/assets/pdf/car-insurance-policy-document.pdf
Taking care of your car
You and any person who is covered by this

Post by Nick Finnigan
Make sure your car is roadworthy.

Modifications to your car
Modifications are changes to your car’s standard
specification, including optional extras.If you wish to modify your car, you
must tell us what modifications you want to make, and we must agree to them
beforehand.
Modifications include changes to the appearance or the performance of your
car, including wheels, suspension, bodywork, engine and any additional
software features (excluding those provided free as software updates by the
manufacturer). This is not a complete list. If you don’t provide correct and
complete information or inform us of any changes, this could invalidate your
policy or mean we don’t pay claims in full or at all.
Payments made outside the terms of the policy
If we have to make a payment that isn’t covered by this policy because we’re
required to do so under any country’s laws, we may ask you (or the person
who is legally responsible) to pay us back any payment made that isn’t
covered by this policy. This includes any amount that we have to pay because
you don’t provide accurate and complete information.

The policy is not invalidated (in England and Wales); read the Act.

[Scott]

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Theo

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Theo
That is presumably so if you're hit by an unroadworthy vehicle the insurance
company can't say 'sorry, unroadworthy, we're not paying'. But it doesn't
mean they can't (try to) recover those costs from the person holding the
insurance policy for that vehicle, because they are in breach of the
insurance T&C and in doing so have caused the insurer a substantial loss.

No, they are not in breach of the T&C. See above.

If your policy is invalidated, for example by not telling the insurer about
modifications, and they are forced to pay out, they will seek to recover
https://www.directline.com/assets/pdf/car-insurance-policy-document.pdf
Taking care of your car
You and any person who is covered by this

Post by Nick Finnigan
Make sure your car is roadworthy.

Modifications to your car
Modifications are changes to your car’s standard
specification, including optional extras.If you wish to modify your car, you
must tell us what modifications you want to make, and we must agree to them
beforehand.
Modifications include changes to the appearance or the performance of your
car, including wheels, suspension, bodywork, engine and any additional
software features (excluding those provided free as software updates by the
manufacturer). This is not a complete list. If you don’t provide correct and
complete information or inform us of any changes, this could invalidate your
policy or mean we don’t pay claims in full or at all.
Payments made outside the terms of the policy
If we have to make a payment that isn’t covered by this policy because we’re
required to do so under any country’s laws, we may ask you (or the person
who is legally responsible) to pay us back any payment made that isn’t
covered by this policy. This includes any amount that we have to pay because
you don’t provide accurate and complete information.

The policy is not invalidated (in England and Wales); read the Act.

My understanding is that there are two sides to this: the rights of
the third party and the rights of the insurer.

The third party enjoys protection (with additional arrangements in
place for uninsured drivers and untraced drivers). This has long been
a feature of road traffic legislation, for reasons that are entirely
understandable.

However, if the policyholder is in breach of policy conditions it is
open to the insurer to make a claim against the policyholder (without
prejudice to the rights of the third party). If you think about it,
this has to be the case or there would be no incentive for the
policyholder to be honest in the proposal form or to comply with the
policy conditions.

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Scott

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Theo

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Theo
That is presumably so if you're hit by an unroadworthy vehicle the insurance
company can't say 'sorry, unroadworthy, we're not paying'. But it doesn't
mean they can't (try to) recover those costs from the person holding the
insurance policy for that vehicle, because they are in breach of the
insurance T&C and in doing so have caused the insurer a substantial loss.

No, they are not in breach of the T&C. See above.

If your policy is invalidated, for example by not telling the insurer about
modifications, and they are forced to pay out, they will seek to recover
https://www.directline.com/assets/pdf/car-insurance-policy-document.pdf
Taking care of your car
You and any person who is covered by this

Post by Nick Finnigan
Make sure your car is roadworthy.

Modifications to your car
Modifications are changes to your car’s standard
specification, including optional extras.If you wish to modify your car, you
must tell us what modifications you want to make, and we must agree to them
beforehand.
Modifications include changes to the appearance or the performance of your
car, including wheels, suspension, bodywork, engine and any additional
software features (excluding those provided free as software updates by the
manufacturer). This is not a complete list. If you don’t provide correct and
complete information or inform us of any changes, this could invalidate your
policy or mean we don’t pay claims in full or at all.
Payments made outside the terms of the policy
If we have to make a payment that isn’t covered by this policy because we’re
required to do so under any country’s laws, we may ask you (or the person
who is legally responsible) to pay us back any payment made that isn’t
covered by this policy. This includes any amount that we have to pay because
you don’t provide accurate and complete information.

The policy is not invalidated (in England and Wales); read the Act.

My understanding is that there are two sides to this: the rights of
the third party and the rights of the insurer.
The third party enjoys protection (with additional arrangements in
place for uninsured drivers and untraced drivers). This has long been
a feature of road traffic legislation, for reasons that are entirely
understandable.
However, if the policyholder is in breach of policy conditions it is
open to the insurer to make a claim against the policyholder (without
prejudice to the rights of the third party). If you think about it,
this has to be the case or there would be no incentive for the
policyholder to be honest in the proposal form or to comply with the
policy conditions.

The policyholder would not be in breach of the policy conditions; the
'rights' of the insurer are limited. Read The Act.

[alan_m]

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at.

Is the wire to it on a connector located near the stub axle? If so is
it a fault with the sensor or just a bad connection or corrosion in the
connector?

[alan_m]

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at.

Is the wire to it on a connector located near the stub axle?  If so is
it a fault with the sensor or just a bad connection or corrosion in the
connector?

Youtube
http://youtu.be/-LZFH3npitg

the £500 repair

[newshound]

Post by alan_m

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at.

Is the wire to it on a connector located near the stub axle?  If so is
it a fault with the sensor or just a bad connection or corrosion in
the connector?

Youtube
http://youtu.be/-LZFH3npitg
the £500 repair
http://youtu.be/Xsqy8TeEcA8

What a good video!

[Peter Hill]

Post by alan_m

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at.

Is the wire to it on a connector located near the stub axle?  If so is
it a fault with the sensor or just a bad connection or corrosion in
the connector?

Youtube
http://youtu.be/-LZFH3npitg
the £500 repair
http://youtu.be/Xsqy8TeEcA8

Be about right at £125/hr. It's at least a 4 hour job and as the camber
and toe adjusters are removed it needs an alignment job.

18mm bolts wtf?

The M12 tri hex bit is available from machine mart in a set with M10,
M12, M14, M16 and M18 bits. I found that out doing rear brake discs on
my bothers Audi A3 after I had bought a Draper set of tri-hex, torx and
hex bits that only went up to M10.

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by alan_m

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at.

Is the wire to it on a connector located near the stub axle?  If so is
it a fault with the sensor or just a bad connection or corrosion in
the connector?

Youtube
http://youtu.be/-LZFH3npitg
the £500 repair
http://youtu.be/Xsqy8TeEcA8

Be about right at £125/hr. It's at least a 4 hour job and as the camber
and toe adjusters are removed it needs an alignment job.

Toe adjusters? On the rear hubs? All that should be necessary is for
the components to be reassembled with the suspension under load.

Post by Peter Hill
18mm bolts wtf?

Those will be for the brake calipers; nothing odd about that.

Post by Peter Hill
The M12 tri hex bit is available from machine mart in a set with M10,
M12, M14, M16 and M18 bits. I found that out doing rear brake discs on
my bothers Audi A3 after I had bought a Draper set of tri-hex, torx and
hex bits that only went up to M10.

Machine Mart? Pah! Check this set out for value:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142617518154?epid=3007152524&hash=item2134aaa04a:g:D3wAAOSw3ZtaKV6c

Free delivery if you're in the UK too!

[Peter Hill]

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by Peter Hill

Post by alan_m

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at.

Is the wire to it on a connector located near the stub axle?  If so is
it a fault with the sensor or just a bad connection or corrosion in
the connector?

Youtube
http://youtu.be/-LZFH3npitg
the £500 repair
http://youtu.be/Xsqy8TeEcA8

Be about right at £125/hr. It's at least a 4 hour job and as the camber
and toe adjusters are removed it needs an alignment job.

Toe adjusters? On the rear hubs? All that should be necessary is for
the components to be reassembled with the suspension under load.

Post by Peter Hill
18mm bolts wtf?

Those will be for the brake calipers; nothing odd about that.

Post by Peter Hill
The M12 tri hex bit is available from machine mart in a set with M10,
M12, M14, M16 and M18 bits. I found that out doing rear brake discs on
my bothers Audi A3 after I had bought a Draper set of tri-hex, torx and
hex bits that only went up to M10.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142617518154?epid=3007152524&hash=item2134aaa04a:g:D3wAAOSw3ZtaKV6c
Free delivery if you're in the UK too!

Those are Torx these are tri-hex spline
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/blue-spot-5-piece-12-spline-bit-set-m10-m18/
But my brother's car was at my brother's home, 135 miles from my home
and I wanted the job done so I could go home. I wasn't going to wait
around 3 days for tools to arrive. As MM shop was on Bath side of
Bristol it only took an hour to do Bath > Bristol > Bath.

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by Peter Hill

Post by alan_m

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at.

Is the wire to it on a connector located near the stub axle?  If so is
it a fault with the sensor or just a bad connection or corrosion in
the connector?

Youtube
http://youtu.be/-LZFH3npitg
the £500 repair
http://youtu.be/Xsqy8TeEcA8

Be about right at £125/hr. It's at least a 4 hour job and as the camber
and toe adjusters are removed it needs an alignment job.

Toe adjusters? On the rear hubs? All that should be necessary is for
the components to be reassembled with the suspension under load.

Post by Peter Hill
18mm bolts wtf?

Those will be for the brake calipers; nothing odd about that.

Post by Peter Hill
The M12 tri hex bit is available from machine mart in a set with M10,
M12, M14, M16 and M18 bits. I found that out doing rear brake discs on
my bothers Audi A3 after I had bought a Draper set of tri-hex, torx and
hex bits that only went up to M10.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142617518154?epid=3007152524&hash=item2134aaa04a:g:D3wAAOSw3ZtaKV6c
Free delivery if you're in the UK too!

Those are Torx these are tri-hex spline
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/blue-spot-5-piece-12-spline-bit-set-m10-m18/

So... what can they do that Torx bits can't? Plus Torx is *way* more
common than those things. In fact I don't ever remember encountering
something like that. The only reason someone would invent a fastener
that tool requires would be to make it far more likely for the car to
be returned to the main dealers when something goes wrong AFAICS.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Cursitor Doom

Post by Peter Hill
The M12 tri hex bit is available from machine mart in a set with M10,
M12, M14, M16 and M18 bits. I found that out doing rear brake discs on
my bothers Audi A3 after I had bought a Draper set of tri-hex, torx and
hex bits that only went up to M10.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142617518154?epid=3007152524&hash=item2134aaa04a:g:D3wAAOSw3ZtaKV6c

Those are Torx these are tri-hex spline

ITYM triple-square?

Post by Peter Hill
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/blue-spot-5-piece-12-spline-bit-set-m10-m18/

[Fredxx]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by alan_m

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at.

Is the wire to it on a connector located near the stub axle?  If so
is it a fault with the sensor or just a bad connection or corrosion
in the connector?

Youtube
http://youtu.be/-LZFH3npitg
the £500 repair
http://youtu.be/Xsqy8TeEcA8

Be about right at £125/hr. It's at least a 4 hour job and as the camber
and toe adjusters are removed it needs an alignment job.
18mm bolts wtf?

On Japanese cars they're 2 a penny, and they also like Metric fine
threads. Though to my knowledge 18mm isn't an ISO standard.

Post by Peter Hill
The M12 tri hex bit is available from machine mart in a set with M10,
M12, M14, M16 and M18 bits. I found that out doing rear brake discs on
my bothers Audi A3 after I had bought a Draper set of tri-hex, torx and
hex bits that only went up to M10.

[Peter Hill]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Peter Hill
18mm bolts wtf?

On Japanese cars they're 2 a penny, and they also like Metric fine
threads. Though to my knowledge 18mm isn't an ISO standard.

Japanese cars I've had and worked on.

Datsun 100A estate.
Datsun 120A coupe.
Datsun Bluebird estate 1.8GL.
Datsun by Nissan Bluebird hardtop coupe 1.8GL.
Toyota Celica 2.0XT liftback.
Mazda 323F GXi estate.
Nissan 200SX fastback x4.

Nephew's
Toyota Celica VVTLi.
Honda Civic 1.4.

Niece
Nissan Micra K11.

None of them had a single bolt with a 18mm AF head. At that size they
are all 17mm and 19mm AF.

Yet another reason to never buy a newer car.

[Cursitor Doom]

Post by Peter Hill
Yet another reason to never buy a newer car.

Hey, another convert! Welcome aboard! Modern cars are shite. And
doubly so if they're electric/hybrid.

[Theo]

Post by alan_m
Is the wire to it on a connector located near the stub axle? If so is
it a fault with the sensor or just a bad connection or corrosion in the
connector?

I had that problem (not on a Merc) - in the beginning driving above 80 mph
would cause the ABS light to trip, then it was 70mph, then 60mph. The car
was also juddery under sustained acceleration as the ABS kicked in.

I thought the reluctor disc was rusty and it would need a new wheel bearing
(including the reluctor), but turned out the sensor was faulty.
Unfortunately since I'd taken it into the garage with the expectation of
them doing the wheel bearing, I didn't have the opportunity of DIYing it.

ebay says the W211 sensor can be had for about a tenner, so I'd try changing
that first if you can DIY it.

Theo

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Also all sorts of strange things happen in modern cars, even things like the
car has been in an accident which has bent something just enough to affect
things like this or suspension issues. I'm actually glad these days that I
was never able to drive, since the complications seem endless when stuff
begins to fail.
Brian
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at.

Is the wire to it on a connector located near the stub axle? If so is it
a fault with the sensor or just a bad connection or corrosion in the
connector?
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Adrian Caspersz]

Post by Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Also all sorts of strange things happen in modern cars, even things like the
car has been in an accident which has bent something just enough to affect
things like this or suspension issues. I'm actually glad these days that I
was never able to drive, since the complications seem endless when stuff
begins to fail.
Brian

I've recently bought (new to me) a Skoda with much of this tech, cool to
play with, but the tech has the assumed IT longevity and disposability
of an iPhone. The car's mechanics will easily outlast that, which was a
similar story with the OP's car.

Open source engine management is a thing, hopeful dream that someone
comes up with the whole car replacement operating system (OSS, of
course) so that we don't needlessly throw cars away because the "radio
console" doesn't work.

Or maybe a partitioning of Convenience systems and manufacturer's safety
systems, so ye could replace the convenience system, just like ye
changed ya car radio of old by removing it from the dash.

In the long term for me, I'm game for some silicon hacking about to keep
my new car on the road, but would still keep the mechanical maintenance
a priority above that. A sensor failing, I'd change it.

I had my previous Octavia for 13 years, a solid thing for me without any
serious maintenance bills, going by reports this Superb shouldn't be a
complete surprise to the pocket.

[Harry Bloomfield, Esq.]

Open source engine management is a thing, hopeful dream that someone comes up
with the whole car replacement operating system (OSS, of course) so that we
don't needlessly throw cars away because the "radio console" doesn't work.

Not from Microsoft I hope?

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:49:38 +0100, Adrian Caspersz

Post by Adrian Caspersz
Open source engine management is a thing, hopeful dream that someone
comes up with the whole car replacement operating system (OSS, of
course) so that we don't needlessly throw cars away because the "radio
console" doesn't work.

This is imperative AISI and aligns to the vitally important 'right to
repair' doctrine which is supposed to be being introduced in order to
reduce the shocking amount of 'stuff' ending up in landfill sites.
Manufacturers have monetised the opacity of their operating systems by
making life increasingly difficult for small independent garages and
the DIY-minded car-owner to perform maintenance on newer cars. They
will naturally resist all attempts at reform, the cunts.

[newshound]

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at. Even for
a Merc main dealer it's half a day's work and requires several special
service tools. I was quoted over 500 quid to fix it! +VAT!!
So I've come up with an ingenious work-around I'd like to run past you
all; see if there's any adverse consequences I haven't thought of. The
car's main CPU thinks the rear n/s wheel is losing grip, because it's
sensing (wrongly) that the speed of that wheel is diffrerent to the
speed of the one on the opposite side. How about I snip the feed from
the n/s sensor and connect it in parallel with the feed from the o/s
one? That way, the CPU will see the signals as perfectly in synch. The
sensor on the 'good side' stub axle will then be supplying speed info
for *both* sides and the duff side will be snipped out of circuit
altogether.

Might this be CAN bus? In which case it might give Marvin a terrible
pain in all the diodes down its left side.

Post by Chris M. White
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

Too risky for me. £600 doesn't sound so bad all of a sudden.

[Harry Bloomfield, Esq.]

Post by newshound
Might this be CAN bus?

Nope - the ABS is completely independent of the canbus.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Chris M. White
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at. Even for
a Merc main dealer it's half a day's work and requires several special
service tools. I was quoted over 500 quid to fix it! +VAT!!
So I've come up with an ingenious work-around I'd like to run past you
all; see if there's any adverse consequences I haven't thought of. The
car's main CPU thinks the rear n/s wheel is losing grip, because it's
sensing (wrongly) that the speed of that wheel is diffrerent to the
speed of the one on the opposite side. How about I snip the feed from
the n/s sensor and connect it in parallel with the feed from the o/s
one? That way, the CPU will see the signals as perfectly in synch. The
sensor on the 'good side' stub axle will then be supplying speed info
for *both* sides and the duff side will be snipped out of circuit
altogether.

Dunno about that particular Merc, but its unlikely to
be a simple analog signal that you can do that with.

Post by Chris M. White
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

[Peeler]

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:30:06 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest trollshit unread>

[Chris M. White]

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:30:06 +1000, "Rod Speed"

Post by Rod Speed
Dunno about that particular Merc, but its unlikely to
be a simple analog signal that you can do that with.

Seems it is, though. Only 2 wires to each sensor feed. The sensors
appear to be simple electromagnetic generators which generate a pulse
whenever the magnetic strip embedded in the stub axle ring goes past
them.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Chris M. White

Post by Rod Speed
Dunno about that particular Merc, but its unlikely to
be a simple analog signal that you can do that with.

Seems it is, though.

Don't believe that.

Post by Chris M. White
Only 2 wires to each sensor feed.

Plenty of digital systems only have 2 wires.

Post by Chris M. White
The sensors appear to be simple electromagnetic generators
which generate a pulse whenever the magnetic strip embedded
in the stub axle ring goes past them.

That's not all there is at the sensor.

And even if it was, you cant just move the two wires from
the faulty wheel to the wheel on the other side and connect
those 2 to the same 2 on the good wheel and have it work.

[Peeler]

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:24:31 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the trolling senile pest's latest trollshit unread>

[Harry Bloomfield, Esq.]

Post by Chris M. White
Seems it is, though. Only 2 wires to each sensor feed. The sensors
appear to be simple electromagnetic generators which generate a pulse
whenever the magnetic strip embedded in the stub axle ring goes past
them.

They are the older type, just a coil of wire like a guitar pick-up.
Modern version is a Hall sensor.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Chris M. White
Seems it is, though. Only 2 wires to each sensor feed. The sensors
appear to be simple electromagnetic generators which generate a pulse
whenever the magnetic strip embedded in the stub axle ring goes past
them.

They are the older type, just a coil of wire like a guitar pick-up.
Modern version is a Hall sensor.

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets -
just teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

[Harry Bloomfield, Esq.]

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets - just
teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:04:38 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets - just
teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

In the vehicle under discussion, they ARE magnets. However, there are
*other* vehicles which use a slightly different technique with a
different kind of sensor and plain steel toothed rings to achieve the
same end. You're more likely to find the toothed ring system used in
distributors, IIRC.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:04:38 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets - just
teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

In the vehicle under discussion, they ARE magnets.

Are you sure? That seems to be to be an expensive and unreliable way to
do it.


However, there are

Post by Cursitor Doom
*other* vehicles which use a slightly different technique with a
different kind of sensor and plain steel toothed rings to achieve the
same end. You're more likely to find the toothed ring system used in
distributors, IIRC.

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 20:29:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:04:38 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets - just
teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

In the vehicle under discussion, they ARE magnets.

Are you sure? That seems to be to be an expensive and unreliable way to
do it.

Yes and yes.
According to the OP it's a ~2003 W211 so it will use the magnet rings.
And yes, it IS an expensive and unreliable technique!

[Andrew]

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 20:29:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:04:38 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets - just
teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

In the vehicle under discussion, they ARE magnets.

Are you sure? That seems to be to be an expensive and unreliable way to
do it.

Yes and yes.
According to the OP it's a ~2003 W211 so it will use the magnet rings.
And yes, it IS an expensive and unreliable technique!

It's been reliable for 18 years which not an unreasonable
lifespan for a car (mileage and usage dependant).

[Sam Block]

Post by Andrew

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 20:29:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:04:38 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets - just
teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

In the vehicle under discussion, they ARE magnets.

Are you sure? That seems to be to be an expensive and unreliable way to
do it.

Yes and yes.
According to the OP it's a ~2003 W211 so it will use the magnet rings.
And yes, it IS an expensive and unreliable technique!

It's been reliable for 18 years which not an unreasonable
lifespan for a car (mileage and usage dependant).

Bullshit and it should be a lot easier to replace when it fails too.

[Peeler]

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 20:48:28 +1000, Sam Block, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the trolling senile shithead's latest trollshit unread>

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 11:30:50 +0100, Andrew

Post by Andrew

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 20:29:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:04:38 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets - just
teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

In the vehicle under discussion, they ARE magnets.

Are you sure? That seems to be to be an expensive and unreliable way to
do it.

Yes and yes.
According to the OP it's a ~2003 W211 so it will use the magnet rings.
And yes, it IS an expensive and unreliable technique!

It's been reliable for 18 years which not an unreasonable
lifespan for a car (mileage and usage dependant).

But it's highly unusual for this component to last *that* long,
though! They can give up the ghost before 6 years even - and it's
always due to corrosion. It's a well-known issue on these cars and the
closer you live to the coast or the more you use the car on salted
roads in winter, the quicker the problem will arise.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:04:38 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets - just
teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

In the vehicle under discussion, they ARE magnets. However, there are
*other* vehicles which use a slightly different technique with a
different kind of sensor and plain steel toothed rings to achieve the
same end. You're more likely to find the toothed ring system used in
distributors, IIRC.

suggests that that merc uses a 'guitar pickup' and a toothed ring

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 20:35:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:04:38 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets - just
teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

In the vehicle under discussion, they ARE magnets. However, there are
*other* vehicles which use a slightly different technique with a
different kind of sensor and plain steel toothed rings to achieve the
same end. You're more likely to find the toothed ring system used in
distributors, IIRC.

http://youtu.be/zNW3YQhwpK4
suggests that that merc uses a 'guitar pickup' and a toothed ring

The toothed-ring systems utilise variable reluctance sensors; the year
and model of the car in question do not. Plus, the car in your video
is a completely different year and model from the one under
discussion.

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 20:35:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:04:38 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets - just
teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

In the vehicle under discussion, they ARE magnets. However, there are
*other* vehicles which use a slightly different technique with a
different kind of sensor and plain steel toothed rings to achieve the
same end. You're more likely to find the toothed ring system used in
distributors, IIRC.

http://youtu.be/zNW3YQhwpK4
suggests that that merc uses a 'guitar pickup' and a toothed ring

THIS video:

Shows the actual model and year. It's sub-3 minutes in length and you
can very clearly see there are no teeth in the new ring he's putting
on.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 20:35:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:04:38 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets - just
teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

In the vehicle under discussion, they ARE magnets. However, there are
*other* vehicles which use a slightly different technique with a
different kind of sensor and plain steel toothed rings to achieve the
same end. You're more likely to find the toothed ring system used in
distributors, IIRC.

http://youtu.be/zNW3YQhwpK4
suggests that that merc uses a 'guitar pickup' and a toothed ring

THIS video: http://youtu.be/eEeG9rTJ0zM
Shows the actual model and year. It's sub-3 minutes in length and you
can very clearly see there are no teeth in the new ring he's putting
on.

There are no visible teeth OR visible magnets. The one removed was
uniformly rusty.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 20:35:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:04:38 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets - just
teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

In the vehicle under discussion, they ARE magnets. However, there are
*other* vehicles which use a slightly different  technique with a
different kind of sensor and plain steel toothed rings to achieve the
same end. You're more likely to find the toothed ring system used in
distributors, IIRC.

http://youtu.be/zNW3YQhwpK4
suggests that that merc uses a 'guitar pickup' and a toothed ring

THIS video: http://youtu.be/eEeG9rTJ0zM
Shows the actual model and year. It's sub-3 minutes in length and you
can very clearly see there are no teeth in the new ring he's putting
on.

There are no visible teeth OR visible magnets. The one removed was
uniformly rusty.

http://youtu.be/Xsqy8TeEcA8

gives a lot more detail. Not a job for an amateur. Probably at least
£300 at a garage

They claim that the outer ring is in some way magnetised.

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 09:14:35 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by alan_m

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 20:35:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Cursitor Doom
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:04:38 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets - just
teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

In the vehicle under discussion, they ARE magnets. However, there are
*other* vehicles which use a slightly different  technique with a
different kind of sensor and plain steel toothed rings to achieve the
same end. You're more likely to find the toothed ring system used in
distributors, IIRC.

http://youtu.be/zNW3YQhwpK4
suggests that that merc uses a 'guitar pickup' and a toothed ring

THIS video: http://youtu.be/eEeG9rTJ0zM
Shows the actual model and year. It's sub-3 minutes in length and you
can very clearly see there are no teeth in the new ring he's putting
on.

There are no visible teeth OR visible magnets. The one removed was
uniformly rusty.

http://youtu.be/Xsqy8TeEcA8
gives a lot more detail. Not a job for an amateur. Probably at least
£300 at a garage
They claim that the outer ring is in some way magnetised.

Er, it is! And it clearly doesn't have any teeth either.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Guitar pickups have a magnet in the coil. No need for rotating magnets
- just teeth on a sensor ring going past will do the job

Thanks, I didn't know they were teeth, knowledge corrected.

I don't know that they are, I am just saying that's all they need to be.

As an engineer, that seems to me to be the simplest solution - lots of
magnets on wheels seems to me to be a manufacturing nightmare

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at. Even for
a Merc main dealer it's half a day's work and requires several special
service tools. I was quoted over 500 quid to fix it! +VAT!!
So I've come up with an ingenious work-around I'd like to run past you
all; see if there's any adverse consequences I haven't thought of. The
car's main CPU thinks the rear n/s wheel is losing grip, because it's
sensing (wrongly) that the speed of that wheel is diffrerent to the
speed of the one on the opposite side.

That would not be enough to determine that the n/s sensor is faulty.

How about I snip the feed from

Post by Chris M. White
the n/s sensor and connect it in parallel with the feed from the o/s
one? That way, the CPU will see the signals as perfectly in synch. The
sensor on the 'good side' stub axle will then be supplying speed info
for *both* sides and the duff side will be snipped out of circuit
altogether.
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

If the CPU is comparing with the n/s rear with the n/s front sensor, to
allow for cornering, you still have a christmas tree.

[steve robinson]

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at. Even for
a Merc main dealer it's half a day's work and requires several special
service tools. I was quoted over 500 quid to fix it! +VAT!!
So I've come up with an ingenious work-around I'd like to run past you
all; see if there's any adverse consequences I haven't thought of. The
car's main CPU thinks the rear n/s wheel is losing grip, because it's
sensing (wrongly) that the speed of that wheel is diffrerent to the
speed of the one on the opposite side. How about I snip the feed from
the n/s sensor and connect it in parallel with the feed from the o/s
one? That way, the CPU will see the signals as perfectly in synch. The
sensor on the 'good side' stub axle will then be supplying speed info
for *both* sides and the duff side will be snipped out of circuit
altogether.
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

Will screw up your abs and possibly traction control , might also
throw a wobbly as the sensors have a resistance as does the wire
putting the circuits in parallel will alter that resistance

[Richard]

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at. Even for
a Merc main dealer it's half a day's work and requires several special
service tools. I was quoted over 500 quid to fix it! +VAT!!
So I've come up with an ingenious work-around I'd like to run past you
all; see if there's any adverse consequences I haven't thought of. The
car's main CPU thinks the rear n/s wheel is losing grip, because it's
sensing (wrongly) that the speed of that wheel is diffrerent to the
speed of the one on the opposite side. How about I snip the feed from
the n/s sensor and connect it in parallel with the feed from the o/s
one? That way, the CPU will see the signals as perfectly in synch. The
sensor on the 'good side' stub axle will then be supplying speed info
for *both* sides and the duff side will be snipped out of circuit
altogether.
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

Nice of you to remind the reader of the cars without ABS.
Perhaps some need reminding that the safety features built into even
your 18 year old merc are part of the whole.
Suicide bombers and suicide drivers need to understand that the majority
of the population just might not be ready to go with them.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

That depends whether the handling of the car depends on the abs being
active, If it can be disabled, then you are probably safe, but might need to
indicate somewhere that the re enable switch is inoperative. You might get
insurance issues unless you declare that its not working if its there by
default.

Brian
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Chris M. White
Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at. Even for
a Merc main dealer it's half a day's work and requires several special
service tools. I was quoted over 500 quid to fix it! +VAT!!
So I've come up with an ingenious work-around I'd like to run past you
all; see if there's any adverse consequences I haven't thought of. The
car's main CPU thinks the rear n/s wheel is losing grip, because it's
sensing (wrongly) that the speed of that wheel is diffrerent to the
speed of the one on the opposite side. How about I snip the feed from
the n/s sensor and connect it in parallel with the feed from the o/s
one? That way, the CPU will see the signals as perfectly in synch. The
sensor on the 'good side' stub axle will then be supplying speed info
for *both* sides and the duff side will be snipped out of circuit
altogether.
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

[Chris M. White]

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:25:50 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Chris M. White
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

I think it should probably work, if it passes the ignition on tests,
but it is highly illegal. If an ABS system is fitted then it it legally
required to work properly.
The way they work, is a Hall sensor is fixed to the static part of the
hub, the rotating part has a series of tiny magnets around its
periphery, perhaps 40, which produces pulses to the ABS ECU.
What can happen is that the magnets can attract rust, which can then
upset the pulse count from a wheel.
You might be able to remove the sensor and poke an even stronger magnet
through the hole, then rotate the hub, to try to 'suck' loose rust off
the hub.If the warning lights come on and stay on before the car is
moved, the likely fault is the sensor, or its wiring.
If they appear when you first get to a low speed, then it points to the
magnetic hub issue or rust.

The most accurate summation so far. You obviously know your stuff!
This car is too old to have serious money spent on it. The next owner
will be the scrappie so I'm only going to run it into the ground
anyway.
I'll try your magnet idea in the first instance and fingers crossed
that may work, as the lights don't come on until the car's moved some
distance. Thanks for your input!

[Spike]

Post by Chris M. White

The way they work, is a Hall sensor is fixed to the static part of the
hub, the rotating part has a series of tiny magnets around its
periphery, perhaps 40, which produces pulses to the ABS ECU.
What can happen is that the magnets can attract rust, which can then
upset the pulse count from a wheel.
You might be able to remove the sensor and poke an even stronger magnet
through the hole, then rotate the hub, to try to 'suck' loose rust off
the hub. If the warning lights come on and stay on before the car is
moved, the likely fault is the sensor, or its wiring.
If they appear when you first get to a low speed, then it points to the
magnetic hub issue or rust.

The most accurate summation so far. You obviously know your stuff!
This car is too old to have serious money spent on it. The next owner
will be the scrappie so I'm only going to run it into the ground
anyway.

If you can't find a fix that keeps the car legal to use on the road at a
price you're willing to pay, then it *has* run into the ground...

[Harry Bloomfield, Esq.]

Post by Chris M. White
I'll try your magnet idea in the first instance and fingers crossed
that may work, as the lights don't come on until the car's moved some
distance. Thanks for your input!

It might also be worth trying the same with presurised air to blow it
out, and/or a vacuum cleaner, and/or a the largest paint brush you can
poke through the sensors hole, then spining hub to try to remove the
rust.

Just to confirm - The sensor and wiring are almost certainly fine, if
they pass the 'ignition on', ABS light goes out test.

[Peter Hill]

Post by Chris M. White
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:25:50 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Chris M. White
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

I think it should probably work, if it passes the ignition on tests,
but it is highly illegal. If an ABS system is fitted then it it legally
required to work properly.
The way they work, is a Hall sensor is fixed to the static part of the
hub, the rotating part has a series of tiny magnets around its
periphery, perhaps 40, which produces pulses to the ABS ECU.
What can happen is that the magnets can attract rust, which can then
upset the pulse count from a wheel.
You might be able to remove the sensor and poke an even stronger magnet
through the hole, then rotate the hub, to try to 'suck' loose rust off
the hub.If the warning lights come on and stay on before the car is
moved, the likely fault is the sensor, or its wiring.
If they appear when you first get to a low speed, then it points to the
magnetic hub issue or rust.

The most accurate summation so far. You obviously know your stuff!
This car is too old to have serious money spent on it. The next owner
will be the scrappie so I'm only going to run it into the ground
anyway.
I'll try your magnet idea in the first instance and fingers crossed
that may work, as the lights don't come on until the car's moved some
distance. Thanks for your input!

The video shows that the failure mode for this model of MB is the magnet
ring becomes detached from the carrier on the axle.

[Chris M. White]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Chris M. White
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:25:50 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Chris M. White
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

I think it should probably work, if it passes the ignition on tests,
but it is highly illegal. If an ABS system is fitted then it it legally
required to work properly.
The way they work, is a Hall sensor is fixed to the static part of the
hub, the rotating part has a series of tiny magnets around its
periphery, perhaps 40, which produces pulses to the ABS ECU.
What can happen is that the magnets can attract rust, which can then
upset the pulse count from a wheel.
You might be able to remove the sensor and poke an even stronger magnet
through the hole, then rotate the hub, to try to 'suck' loose rust off
the hub.If the warning lights come on and stay on before the car is
moved, the likely fault is the sensor, or its wiring.
If they appear when you first get to a low speed, then it points to the
magnetic hub issue or rust.

The most accurate summation so far. You obviously know your stuff!
This car is too old to have serious money spent on it. The next owner
will be the scrappie so I'm only going to run it into the ground
anyway.
I'll try your magnet idea in the first instance and fingers crossed
that may work, as the lights don't come on until the car's moved some
distance. Thanks for your input!

The video shows that the failure mode for this model of MB is the magnet
ring becomes detached from the carrier on the axle.

*Eventually* yes. But long before it gets that bad, according to some
of the good and the great on this group, rust particles build up on
the ring causing this malfunction. So I can hopefully at least buy
some time!

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Chris M. White
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a
fault which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree.
This one fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated
text warnings to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent
garage that specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns
out the problem is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear
stub axle. The part costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at. Even for
a Merc main dealer it's half a day's work and requires several special
service tools. I was quoted over 500 quid to fix it! +VAT!!

Sounds like part of that wheel speed sensor, for the ABS and possibly
traction control etc. And rather odd for the toothed wheel part to fail.
Are you certain it's not the sensor? They can and do fail.

[Harry Bloomfield, Esq.]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Sounds like part of that wheel speed sensor, for the ABS and possibly
traction control etc. And rather odd for the toothed wheel part to fail.
Are you certain it's not the sensor? They can and do fail.

Not this time, it passes the ignition on static tests.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Sounds like part of that wheel speed sensor, for the ABS and possibly
traction control etc. And rather odd for the toothed wheel part to fail.
Are you certain it's not the sensor? They can and do fail.

Not this time, it passes the ignition on static tests.

whether or not there are magnets in the ring (which I doubt: sensible to
put one fixed magnet in the sensor itself and have the magnetic field
modulated by a toothed steel ring) a common fault is rust and other
magnetic materials building up in the ring teeth and making it less
sensitive. A blast with a compressed airline and or applying rust
removal liquids to the ring should sort it.
If it has been failing at progressively lower speeds this is totally
consistent with a weaker signal, cause by slow buildup of magnetic
material in the teeth.

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:07:03 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Sounds like part of that wheel speed sensor, for the ABS and possibly
traction control etc. And rather odd for the toothed wheel part to fail.
Are you certain it's not the sensor? They can and do fail.

The OP stated the car is a W211 of approx 2003 manufacture.
Consequently, it will not have a toothed ring, but one made with a
bunch of magnets imbedded around it. It's a known issue on this model
that rust particles build up within the axle and are attracted to the
magnets in the ring. Frequently the ring itself also rusts and can
disintegrate entirely eventually. The rings are cheap enough, but
getting at them is a bit of a PITA. Someone has suggested methods of
removing the rust particles via the sensor hole - but good luck
getting the sensor out as achieving that seemingly simple objective
can be as big a PITA as getting to the ring!

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Chris M. White
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

I think it should probably work, if it passes the ignition on tests, but it
is highly illegal. If an ABS system is fitted then it it legally required
to work properly.

What law defines how an ABS system works properly ?

[tim...]

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Chris M. White
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS
at all so it's not inherently dangerous.

I think it should probably work, if it passes the ignition on tests, but
it is highly illegal. If an ABS system is fitted then it it legally
required to work properly.

What law defines how an ABS system works properly ?

whether the little light the dash tells you it's working properly

coupled with the potential for professional misconduct charges brought
against manufactures (and individual employees thereof) who knowing or even
negligently, engineer a systems that doesn't work, charges which can reach
the level of imprisonment for manslaughter.

[David]

Guys,
I have an aging (18 year old) Mercedes W211 which has developed a fault
which is causing the dash to light up like a Christmas tree. This one
fault is causing 3 different warning lights and associated text warnings
to come up: ABS, ESP and SB. I took it to an independent garage that
specialises in Mercs and has all the software etc. Turns out the problem
is a magnetic ring buried deep inside the n/s rear stub axle. The part
costs peanuts, but is *murder* to get at. Even for a Merc main dealer
it's half a day's work and requires several special service tools. I was
quoted over 500 quid to fix it! +VAT!!
So I've come up with an ingenious work-around I'd like to run past you
all; see if there's any adverse consequences I haven't thought of. The
car's main CPU thinks the rear n/s wheel is losing grip, because it's
sensing (wrongly) that the speed of that wheel is diffrerent to the
speed of the one on the opposite side. How about I snip the feed from
the n/s sensor and connect it in parallel with the feed from the o/s
one? That way, the CPU will see the signals as perfectly in synch. The
sensor on the 'good side' stub axle will then be supplying speed info
for *both* sides and the duff side will be snipped out of circuit
altogether.
Your thoughts on anything I haven't considered (I mean *technical*
issues, not daft observations about legality etc.) I would remind you
all there are plenty of classic cars on the road that don't have ABS at
all so it's not inherently dangerous.

I assume you can't just replace the stub axle?


Cheers


Dave R