Beware the EV car test drive...

[Tim+]

.. because if you try one, you’ll never look at an IC engined car in the
same way again.

I’ve always regarded EV and rich kids toys, useful only as a second car
because of their limited range or horrendous cost if you want good range
(eg. Teslas). In many that’s still true but the range and performance is
rapidly improving at the cheaper end of the market and now they’re looking
serious viable as a first car.

So, last week after seeing images and some reviews of the Honda-e I booked
a test drive, my first in an EV.

If I’d had the money in my pocket I might have bought it there and then
after the test drive, I was just so wowed by the whole EV driving
experience. The Honda-e is lovely to drive, has some superb design
features and an amazing 4.3M turning circle amongst its many attributes.

Sadly it’s also fatally flawed. A range that is a bit pathetic by modern
standards (135 miles at best), a tiny boot (which I could live with for a
town car but a bit small for our dog, and ludicrous backseat passenger
space. The battery and rear motor seriously encroach into the leg space and
the car is effectively a 2+2 rather than a 4 seater.

So, having decided that we still wanted an EV, we had a quick look around
and discovered that the Kia Niro is well reviewed. Great range (>250
miles), more power, more space. Off we went to our local Kia dealer but
when we saw the Niro in the flesh neither my wife nor myself were wowed by
the look of it. After the Honda it looked utterly unremarkable.

The dealer mentioned that the Kia Soul has identical underpinnings and he
had one around the back we could test drive. Well, I’ve never been a huge
fan of the Soul’s quirky looks but the updated 2020 version is funkier and
the internal space looked much more suited to our needs. Huge boot and
space for the dog, good rear passenger space.

To drive, the extra power over the Honda was instantly noticeable (0-62 7.6
seconds) and the much greater battery capacity opens its use up a lot and
makes many more journeys possible without serious range anxiety. Oodles of
gadgets including a heat pump heating/ventilations system and they now come
with liquid cooled batteries (supposedly “a good thing”).

All in all we were impressed enough to order one for September.

So why beware? Well I find it hard now to drive our present cars without
thinking of the ludicrous complexity and inefficiency of present day
engines and their associated gearboxes, emission control equipment and
everything needed to make a stupidly complicated engine halfway acceptable
to drive.

Present day IC engines are in some ways a miracle of development but I want
no further dealings with them. We will keep one car for very long journeys
(we think) but I can see us planning around the charge issues and learning
to do without the ability to refuel in minutes.

So, you have been warned. Test drive an EV and you stand a serious risk of
becoming an EV bore and proselytiser. ;-)

Tim

[RJH]

Post by Tim+
.. because if you try one, you’ll never look at an IC engined car in the
same way again.

snip

Possibly - probably even. But they're still way beyond my means.

[Theo]

Post by RJH

Post by Tim+
.. because if you try one, you’ll never look at an IC engined car in the
same way again.

+1

Post by RJH
Possibly - probably even. But they're still way beyond my means.

I think now is about a good time to leap into the new EV market. However
I'm normally around the ~10yo point in the market, and those (eg 2011-13
Leaf for £5-7K) have early-adopter issues. They've mostly been ironed out
in current cars (range is much better, battery management better, etc), but
if you're in the used market you have to deal not only with new-technology
issues they had from new, but 'old banger' reliability issues on top of them
(and a different class of troubles from 'rusty exhaust' that everyone's
familiar with).

That's not to say I wouldn't think about an elderly Leaf if a good one came
up at the right price, it might just need a bit more TLC than you'd expect
from an EV. Although that TLC is more in the case of being careful about
how you charge it, rather than it needing garage attention, so isn't
necessarily costly to do.

I drove a 2014 Leaf and wasn't hugely impressed - it's sluggish for an EV,
although lack of performance wouldn't bother me that much. I'm sure a new
one would be night and day different.

Theo

[Peter Hill]

Post by RJH

Post by Tim+
.. because if you try one, you’ll never look at an IC engined car in the
same way again.

snip
Possibly - probably even. But they're still way beyond my means.

I've never spent more than £3000 on a car. It lasted me 10 years. But I
did buy 65k mile "donor" for £150 to keep it in parts. When it was
scrapped "donor" got all her bits back. Just needs some weld applying to
hide the 6m of yellow chalk and an engine that has big end bearings (it
only had 2L of brown slurry for 'coolant', I've only found 7 of the 8
half shells...).

So I bought 2 more for £1400 each (daily driver and Sunday best). I've
had one of them 12 years and the other 10. Couldn't buy them now, I've
seen people asking over £5k for them, maybe 20 are presented for sale
each year. None on pistonheads, wanted ads on carandclassic, asking £6K
for completely ruined (no interior) "drift" cars on gumtree and e-bay.
One has a tube front end, the inner wings forward of the strut towers
have been cut out and a 197 bhp N/A I6 has replaced the 170bhp I4 turbo
(seems like a lot of work for 27 bhp). My typical MOT welding bill is
around £300 so I'm just about breaking even.

I suspect EVs having lots of copper in the motor and batteries that can
be recycled into home power banks will have a higher end of life value
than ICE cars. Early Leaf has 24Kwh and even if 2nd hand batteries
reduced to a bargain £20/kwh it's battery is worth £480. You would be
lucky to get £100 for a scrap car at present. This advert will buy
wrecks/write offs Nissan Leaf for £2k.
https://www.gumtree.com/p/nissan/will-buy-nissan-leaf-wrecks-write-offs/1379009008

[Theo]

Post by Peter Hill
I suspect EVs having lots of copper in the motor and batteries that can
be recycled into home power banks will have a higher end of life value
than ICE cars. Early Leaf has 24Kwh and even if 2nd hand batteries
reduced to a bargain £20/kwh it's battery is worth £480. You would be
lucky to get £100 for a scrap car at present. This advert will buy
wrecks/write offs Nissan Leaf for £2k.
https://www.gumtree.com/p/nissan/will-buy-nissan-leaf-wrecks-write-offs/1379009008

ebay is £275/cell (1.25kWh) at the moment, or £5750 for the whole battery.
So it's actually cheaper to buy a used Leaf than it is to buy batteries at
this point.

Theo

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article

Post by Tim+
So why beware? Well I find it hard now to drive our present cars without
thinking of the ludicrous complexity and inefficiency of present day
engines and their associated gearboxes, emission control equipment and
everything needed to make a stupidly complicated engine halfway
acceptable to drive.

No doubt tempered by the fact that electric vehicles have a very unfair
advantage, given the fuel isn't taxed in the same way as others. For the
moment. I've no doubt when they become the norm, many will look back to
the good old days of the Morris Minor which was cheap and easy to keep
running.

Not something that worries those who can afford a nice new car regularly
though. And do wonder what your current vehicle is you find so
unattractive?

[Tim+]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Tim+
So why beware? Well I find it hard now to drive our present cars without
thinking of the ludicrous complexity and inefficiency of present day
engines and their associated gearboxes, emission control equipment and
everything needed to make a stupidly complicated engine halfway
acceptable to drive.

No doubt tempered by the fact that electric vehicles have a very unfair
advantage, given the fuel isn't taxed in the same way as others. For the
moment. I've no doubt when they become the norm, many will look back to
the good old days of the Morris Minor which was cheap and easy to keep
running.
Not something that worries those who can afford a nice new car regularly
though. And do wonder what your current vehicle is you find so
unattractive?

It’s not a bad car, but after driving an EV an ordinary cars seems akin to
a Shackleton bomber. "10,000 loose rivets flying in close formation". An
EV just highlights the absurdity of IC engines.

Tim

[RJH]

Post by Tim+

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Tim+
So why beware? Well I find it hard now to drive our present cars without
thinking of the ludicrous complexity and inefficiency of present day
engines and their associated gearboxes, emission control equipment and
everything needed to make a stupidly complicated engine halfway
acceptable to drive.

No doubt tempered by the fact that electric vehicles have a very unfair
advantage, given the fuel isn't taxed in the same way as others. For the
moment. I've no doubt when they become the norm, many will look back to
the good old days of the Morris Minor which was cheap and easy to keep
running.
Not something that worries those who can afford a nice new car regularly
though. And do wonder what your current vehicle is you find so
unattractive?

It’s not a bad car, but after driving an EV an ordinary cars seems akin to
a Shackleton bomber. "10,000 loose rivets flying in close formation". An
EV just highlights the absurdity of IC engines.
Tim

Yes, I'm sure. But even putting the cost aside, charging is likely to
remain an issue for many. So IC remains the only realistic choice for them.

Not for you, though, obvs

(apologies for replying directly earlier - getting used to Thunderbird's
special ways . . . )

[Peter Hill]

Post by RJH

Post by Tim+

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Tim+
So why beware? Well I find it hard now to drive our present cars without
thinking of the ludicrous complexity and inefficiency of present day
engines and their associated gearboxes, emission control equipment and
everything needed to make a stupidly complicated engine halfway
acceptable to drive.

No doubt tempered by the fact that electric vehicles have a very unfair
advantage, given the fuel isn't taxed in the same way as others. For the
moment. I've no doubt when they become the norm, many will look back to
the good old days of the Morris Minor which was cheap and easy to keep
running.
Not something that worries those who can afford a nice new car regularly
though. And do wonder what your current vehicle is you find so
unattractive?

It’s not a bad car, but after driving an EV an ordinary cars seems akin to
a Shackleton bomber.  "10,000 loose rivets flying in close
formation".  An
EV just highlights the absurdity of IC engines.
Tim

Yes, I'm sure. But even putting the cost aside, charging is likely to
remain an issue for many. So IC remains the only realistic choice for them.
Not for you, though, obvs
(apologies for replying directly earlier - getting used to Thunderbird's
special ways . . . )

Had me a few times...

You can edit the menu so "Followup" is first on the list before "Reply"
for USENET.

Don't ask me how, it was over 3 years ago that I made this change.

[steve robinson]

Post by RJH

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Tim+
So why beware? Well I find it hard now to drive our present cars without
thinking of the ludicrous complexity and inefficiency of present day
engines and their associated gearboxes, emission control equipment and
everything needed to make a stupidly complicated engine halfway
acceptable to drive.

No doubt tempered by the fact that electric vehicles have a very unfair
advantage, given the fuel isn't taxed in the same way as others. For the
moment. I've no doubt when they become the norm, many will look back to
the good old days of the Morris Minor which was cheap and easy to keep
running.
Not something that worries those who can afford a nice new car regularly
though. And do wonder what your current vehicle is you find so
unattractive?

It’s not a bad car, but after driving an EV an ordinary cars seems akin to
a Shackleton bomber. "10,000 loose rivets flying in close formation". An
EV just highlights the absurdity of IC engines.
Tim

Yes, I'm sure. But even putting the cost aside, charging is likely to
remain an issue for many. So IC remains the only realistic choice for them.
Not for you, though, obvs
(apologies for replying directly earlier - getting used to Thunderbird's
special ways . . . )

All well and good until you get stranded in a snow storm or traffic
jamb and you run out of power . May be in twenty years but not now

[Tim+]

Post by steve robinson

Post by RJH

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Tim+
So why beware? Well I find it hard now to drive our present cars without
thinking of the ludicrous complexity and inefficiency of present day
engines and their associated gearboxes, emission control equipment and
everything needed to make a stupidly complicated engine halfway
acceptable to drive.

No doubt tempered by the fact that electric vehicles have a very unfair
advantage, given the fuel isn't taxed in the same way as others. For the
moment. I've no doubt when they become the norm, many will look back to
the good old days of the Morris Minor which was cheap and easy to keep
running.
Not something that worries those who can afford a nice new car regularly
though. And do wonder what your current vehicle is you find so
unattractive?

It’s not a bad car, but after driving an EV an ordinary cars seems akin to
a Shackleton bomber. "10,000 loose rivets flying in close formation". An
EV just highlights the absurdity of IC engines.
Tim

Yes, I'm sure. But even putting the cost aside, charging is likely to
remain an issue for many. So IC remains the only realistic choice for them.
Not for you, though, obvs
(apologies for replying directly earlier - getting used to Thunderbird's
special ways . . . )

All well and good until you get stranded in a snow storm or traffic
jamb and you run out of power . May be in twenty years but not now

Never been stranded in a snow storm in 46 years of driving despite having
lived for a good time in the NE of Scotland. Yes, it is something to think
about but I’m not sure that for most people it needs to be high on their
list of things to worry about if their EV has a decent battery capacity and
a heat-pump based heating system.

Tim

[Peter Hill]

Post by Tim+

Post by steve robinson

Post by RJH

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

Post by Tim+
So why beware? Well I find it hard now to drive our present cars without
thinking of the ludicrous complexity and inefficiency of present day
engines and their associated gearboxes, emission control equipment and
everything needed to make a stupidly complicated engine halfway
acceptable to drive.

No doubt tempered by the fact that electric vehicles have a very unfair
advantage, given the fuel isn't taxed in the same way as others. For the
moment. I've no doubt when they become the norm, many will look back to
the good old days of the Morris Minor which was cheap and easy to keep
running.
Not something that worries those who can afford a nice new car regularly
though. And do wonder what your current vehicle is you find so
unattractive?

It’s not a bad car, but after driving an EV an ordinary cars seems akin to
a Shackleton bomber. "10,000 loose rivets flying in close formation". An
EV just highlights the absurdity of IC engines.
Tim

Yes, I'm sure. But even putting the cost aside, charging is likely to
remain an issue for many. So IC remains the only realistic choice for them.
Not for you, though, obvs
(apologies for replying directly earlier - getting used to Thunderbird's
special ways . . . )

All well and good until you get stranded in a snow storm or traffic
jamb and you run out of power . May be in twenty years but not now

Won't ever happen, unless you are just as stupid as the guy that sets
out with 1/5th tank of petrol .... cos they only put a tenner at a time
in it. With an efficient heat pump heater you only need about 3/4Kw/h.
12 hours = 8Kw (£1) about 30 miles of your range. An ICE will idle
though 1 l/h, 12 hours = 12 litres (£13) 70-100 miles of your range.

Post by Tim+
Never been stranded in a snow storm in 46 years of driving despite having
lived for a good time in the NE of Scotland. Yes, it is something to think
about but I’m not sure that for most people it needs to be high on their
list of things to worry about if their EV has a decent battery capacity and
a heat-pump based heating system.
Tim

The big plus is you don't have to keep getting out every 20-30 min and
letting the heat out. Maybe by climbing out the window when the snow is
up the doors so you can't open them. Then dig your way to the back of
the car and dig a big hole to let the exhaust escape. Now, did you
remember to pack that shovel and 2 sleeping bags for each person? The
paper recycling bag so you can insulate the floor? Probably not if you
forgot to charge the car or fill the tank.

Or you make the choice between switching off the engine so you freeze to
death and just sitting there waiting to die from carbon monoxide
poisoning. zzzzz _______ (flatline)

When the snow is over the windows and roof everyone has the same problem.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article

It‘s not a bad car, but after driving an EV an ordinary cars seems akin to
a Shackleton bomber. "10,000 loose rivets flying in close formation". An
EV just highlights the absurdity of IC engines.

Perfectly possible to make an IC engined car quiet. Or to make the noise
it makes attractive - at least to some.

And if you have a super quiet engine, road roar and wind noise just
becomes more apparent.

To provide a fair comparison, you'd have to look at a brand new IC engined
car that costs the same as that EV.

[Tim+]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

It‘s not a bad car, but after driving an EV an ordinary cars seems akin to
a Shackleton bomber. "10,000 loose rivets flying in close formation". An
EV just highlights the absurdity of IC engines.

Perfectly possible to make an IC engined car quiet. Or to make the noise
it makes attractive - at least to some.

I know, I had a very nice Jag V6 for a while. Doesn’t alter the fact that
a modern IC engine is a hideously complex beast that requires a huge amount
of ancillary equipment to make it drivable and less polluting. They no
longer float my boat. Your mileage my differ.

Tim

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article

I know, I had a very nice Jag V6 for a while. Doesn‘t alter the fact
that a modern IC engine is a hideously complex beast that requires a
huge amount of ancillary equipment to make it drivable and less
polluting. They no longer float my boat. Your mileage my differ.

If you're worried about overall pollution, you need to know how the
electricity used to charge your car is generated. And lots of other things
too. Making any new car isn't pollution free.

[Steve H]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article

I know, I had a very nice Jag V6 for a while. Doesn‘t alter the fact
that a modern IC engine is a hideously complex beast that requires a
huge amount of ancillary equipment to make it drivable and less
polluting. They no longer float my boat. Your mileage my differ.

If you're worried about overall pollution, you need to know how the
electricity used to charge your car is generated. And lots of other things
too. Making any new car isn't pollution free.

The inconvenient truth about EV is the utter destruction of the
developing world and exploitation of child labour in mining the precious
metals in the batteries.

But it's happening to poor ethnic people thousands of miles away, so it
doesn't count, right?

[Theo]

Post by Steve H
The inconvenient truth about EV is the utter destruction of the
developing world and exploitation of child labour in mining the precious
metals in the batteries.
But it's happening to poor ethnic people thousands of miles away, so it
doesn't count, right?

...compared with the spotless record of the oil industry?

Theo

[RJH]

Post by Theo

Post by Steve H
The inconvenient truth about EV is the utter destruction of the
developing world and exploitation of child labour in mining the precious
metals in the batteries.
But it's happening to poor ethnic people thousands of miles away, so it
doesn't count, right?

...compared with the spotless record of the oil industry?

Quite! Working out the 'least harm' is not easy, though.

I'd rather people worked out ways of avoiding things like cars for sole
household use.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by RJH

Post by Theo

Post by Steve H
The inconvenient truth about EV is the utter destruction of the
developing world and exploitation of child labour in mining the precious
metals in the batteries.
But it's happening to poor ethnic people thousands of miles away, so it
doesn't count, right?

...compared with the spotless record of the oil industry?

Quite! Working out the 'least harm' is not easy, though.
I'd rather people worked out ways of avoiding things like cars for sole
household use.

When I hear this, I like to ask if it includes you too? And throughout
your life, rather than just now?

[RJH]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by RJH

Post by Theo

Post by Steve H
The inconvenient truth about EV is the utter destruction of the
developing world and exploitation of child labour in mining the precious
metals in the batteries.
But it's happening to poor ethnic people thousands of miles away, so it
doesn't count, right?

...compared with the spotless record of the oil industry?

Quite! Working out the 'least harm' is not easy, though.
I'd rather people worked out ways of avoiding things like cars for sole
household use.

When I hear this, I like to ask if it includes you too? And throughout
your life, rather than just now?

Nope, doesn't include me. It's what I think ought to happen, and I'd be
the first to support a society-wide move to abolish private ownership of
pretty much anything.

[Peter Hill]

Post by RJH

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by RJH

Post by Theo

Post by Steve H
The inconvenient truth about EV is the utter destruction of the
developing world and exploitation of child labour in mining the precious
metals in the batteries.
But it's happening to poor ethnic people thousands of miles away, so it
doesn't count, right?

...compared with the spotless record of the oil industry?

Quite! Working out the 'least harm' is not easy, though.
I'd rather people worked out ways of avoiding things like cars for sole
household use.

When I hear this, I like to ask if it includes you too? And throughout
your life, rather than just now?

Nope, doesn't include me. It's what I think ought to happen, and I'd be
the first to support a society-wide move to abolish private ownership of
pretty much anything.

Will it be sleek and stylish? I wouldn't be seen dead in 99% of the
gopping, bloated, devoid of style things that people are using for
transport this century.

Would it be "free" for me. My present transport solution is making me
money. Bought for £1400 ten years ago, now going for £6000+. Most I ever
spent on a car was £3000, that lasted me 10 years when the shell was
crushed but I've still got 75% of it. All new car buyers burn more than
£3000 in depreciation every year, they must have money to burn so I
think they can pay.

An oil and filter change costs me less than £20, around 1/2 hour but I
leave it draining for 2 hours while I go do other stuff. Cam belt +
water pump, under £100 + 3 hours of my time. I'm an ex mechanical
engineer that has a 2nd qualification in computing. I refuse to pay
£100/hr for the services of some 1/2 trained guy that knew it all and
didn't listen in MV training. (I've worked in a tech college with a MV
shop.)

As for public ownership. That reduces everyone to living in 1/4 of an
international hotel bedroom.

[RJH]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by RJH

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by RJH

Post by Theo

Post by Steve H
The inconvenient truth about EV is the utter destruction of the
developing world and exploitation of child labour in mining the precious
metals in the batteries.
But it's happening to poor ethnic people thousands of miles away, so it
doesn't count, right?

...compared with the spotless record of the oil industry?

Quite! Working out the 'least harm' is not easy, though.
I'd rather people worked out ways of avoiding things like cars for sole
household use.

When I hear this, I like to ask if it includes you too? And throughout
your life, rather than just now?

Nope, doesn't include me. It's what I think ought to happen, and I'd
be the first to support a society-wide move to abolish private
ownership of pretty much anything.

Will it be sleek and stylish? I wouldn't be seen dead in 99% of the
gopping, bloated, devoid of style things that people are using for
transport this century.

Oh yes, think Trabant PHEV :-)

Post by Peter Hill
Would it be "free" for me. My present transport solution is making me
money. Bought for £1400 ten years ago, now going for £6000+. Most I ever
spent on a car was £3000, that lasted me 10 years when the shell was
crushed but I've still got 75% of it. All new car buyers burn more than
£3000 in depreciation every year, they must have money to burn so I
think they can pay.

It'd be available according to need.

Post by Peter Hill
An oil and filter change costs me less than £20, around 1/2 hour but I
leave it draining for 2 hours while I go do other stuff. Cam belt +
water pump, under £100 + 3 hours of my time. I'm an ex mechanical
engineer that has a 2nd qualification in computing. I refuse to pay
£100/hr for the services of some 1/2 trained guy that knew it all and
didn't listen in MV training. (I've worked in a tech college with a MV
shop.)

If that's what you fancy doing under my new world order, fill yer boots.

"Do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish
in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner,
just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman
or critic" as someone once said :-)

Post by Peter Hill
As for public ownership. That reduces everyone to living in 1/4 of an
international hotel bedroom.

Take the total wealth of the UK and divide it by 60-odd million. Then
share out evenly. I'd bet a small amount that you'd be considerably
better off than you are now.

[Peter Hill]

Post by RJH

Post by Peter Hill
As for public ownership. That reduces everyone to living in 1/4 of an
international hotel bedroom.

Take the total wealth of the UK and divide it by 60-odd million. Then
share out evenly. I'd bet a small amount that you'd be considerably
better off than you are now.

Population est at mid year 67,886,011.

UK net worth £12.8 trillion, or almost £13 million million.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48759591

£188,551 each person.

Are you still in?

[RJH]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by RJH

Post by Peter Hill
As for public ownership. That reduces everyone to living in 1/4 of an
international hotel bedroom.

Take the total wealth of the UK and divide it by 60-odd million. Then
share out evenly. I'd bet a small amount that you'd be considerably
better off than you are now.

Population est at mid year 67,886,011.
UK net worth £12.8 trillion, or almost £13 million million.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48759591
£188,551 each person.
Are you still in?

Yup. At about half a million a household, that'd even things out.

The difficult bit is what happens next.

[Theo]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
No doubt tempered by the fact that electric vehicles have a very unfair
advantage, given the fuel isn't taxed in the same way as others. For the
moment. I've no doubt when they become the norm, many will look back to
the good old days of the Morris Minor which was cheap and easy to keep
running.

I wonder how a Morris Minor would stack up today.
It might be simple, but you'd have a lot more visits to the garage
(assuming you don't DIY, which most people won't or can't)
At £50-100/hour it doesn't exactly come cheap to keep something like that on
the road.

Plus a new Morris Minor would have to come with all the emissions and safety
complexity that weren't needed back then, making it less cheap and DIY
friendly.

Theo

[Peter Hill]

Post by Theo

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
No doubt tempered by the fact that electric vehicles have a very unfair
advantage, given the fuel isn't taxed in the same way as others. For the
moment. I've no doubt when they become the norm, many will look back to
the good old days of the Morris Minor which was cheap and easy to keep
running.

I wonder how a Morris Minor would stack up today.
It might be simple, but you'd have a lot more visits to the garage
(assuming you don't DIY, which most people won't or can't)
At £50-100/hour it doesn't exactly come cheap to keep something like that on
the road.
Plus a new Morris Minor would have to come with all the emissions and safety
complexity that weren't needed back then, making it less cheap and DIY
friendly.
Theo

Modern cars are far more easy to keep running.

I don't have a single grease point on the chassis. You might not
remember what happens to a Morris Minor if you neglect the greasing of
the front suspension. I've seen one sometime in the last decade with its
front wheel flopped out of the arch and lying dead on the road.

I haven't changed a set of points for 20 years. I don't use a timing
light any more, just put the sensor back on the mark after a cam belt
change.

It's maybe 25 years since I checked a float level on a carb. Or stripped
and cleaned the jets in a carb.

Spark plugs that last 60K miles instead of 5K.

Oil and filter change is no more difficult that it was on old cars.

If you buy FWD you will need new CV gaiters at some time. RWD mine are
still good at 196K miles and 27 years old. I had to replace a steering
rack gaiter last year, I did the job twice as the 27 year old one I took
from spares failed quite quickly.

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Peter Hill
Modern cars are far more easy to keep running.
If you buy FWD you will need new CV gaiters at some time. RWD mine are
still good at 196K miles and 27 years old. I had to replace a steering rack
gaiter last year, I did the job twice as the 27 year old one I took from
spares failed quite quickly.

The Soul EV is FWD, disappointingly.
And has an automatic transmission allegedly.
And lots of torque, so presumably ESP.
And steering wheel paddles to adjust the braking.

[Tim+]

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Peter Hill
Modern cars are far more easy to keep running.
If you buy FWD you will need new CV gaiters at some time. RWD mine are
still good at 196K miles and 27 years old. I had to replace a steering rack
gaiter last year, I did the job twice as the 27 year old one I took from
spares failed quite quickly.

The Soul EV is FWD, disappointingly.

Pros and cons. The Honda e had a brilliant turning circle thanks to its
RWD. It also had a ludicrously small boot and total absence of leg room in
the back.

Post by Nick Finnigan
And has an automatic transmission allegedly.

Um, I think 99% of EVs have no gears.

Post by Nick Finnigan
And lots of torque, so presumably ESP.

I’ll let you know, but I’m sure you’re right.

Post by Nick Finnigan
And steering wheel paddles to adjust the braking.

Yep.

Tim

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Tim+

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Peter Hill
Modern cars are far more easy to keep running.
If you buy FWD you will need new CV gaiters at some time. RWD mine are
still good at 196K miles and 27 years old. I had to replace a steering rack
gaiter last year, I did the job twice as the 27 year old one I took from
spares failed quite quickly.

The Soul EV is FWD, disappointingly.

Pros and cons. The Honda e had a brilliant turning circle thanks to its
RWD. It also had a ludicrously small boot and total absence of leg room in
the back.

It's a tiny car

Post by Tim+

Post by Nick Finnigan
And has an automatic transmission allegedly.

Um, I think 99% of EVs have no gears.

'1 speed automatic transmission', which I have to suppose is more than
just an 8.2:1 final drive and differential.

https://www.kia.com/content/dam/kwcms/kme/uk/en/assets/vehicles/all-new-soul-ev/Specification/all-new-soul-ev-specification.pdf

[Peter Hill]

Post by Tim+

Post by Peter Hill
Modern cars are far more easy to keep running.
If you buy FWD you will need new CV gaiters at some time. RWD mine are
still good at 196K miles and 27 years old. I had to replace a steering rack
gaiter last year, I did the job twice as the 27 year old one I took from
spares failed quite quickly.

  The Soul EV is FWD, disappointingly.

Pros and cons. The Honda e had a brilliant turning circle thanks to its
RWD.  It also had a ludicrously small boot and total absence of leg
room in
the back.

 It's a tiny car

Post by Tim+

And has an automatic transmission allegedly.

Um, I think 99% of EVs have no gears.

 '1 speed automatic transmission', which I have to suppose is more than
just an 8.2:1 final drive and differential.
https://www.kia.com/content/dam/kwcms/kme/uk/en/assets/vehicles/all-new-soul-ev/Specification/all-new-soul-ev-specification.pdf

Most are a single reduction gear to the differential.

Chevy Bolt does it bit differently as they have output shafts concentric
with motor shaft. Using a double reduction to the diff, then run one
drive shaft though the hollow motor rotor shaft from diff to inner CV
joint. This gives them equal length half shafts but they are short so
angles and change of length the shaft has to accomodate due to steering
will be greater.

The reverse is simply the electric motor running backwards.

[Tim+]

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Tim+

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Peter Hill
Modern cars are far more easy to keep running.
If you buy FWD you will need new CV gaiters at some time. RWD mine are
still good at 196K miles and 27 years old. I had to replace a steering rack
gaiter last year, I did the job twice as the 27 year old one I took from
spares failed quite quickly.

The Soul EV is FWD, disappointingly.

Pros and cons. The Honda e had a brilliant turning circle thanks to its
RWD. It also had a ludicrously small boot and total absence of leg room in
the back.

It's a tiny car

Have you seen one in the flesh? Not that small.

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Tim+

Post by Nick Finnigan
And has an automatic transmission allegedly.

Um, I think 99% of EVs have no gears.

'1 speed automatic transmission', which I have to suppose is more than
just an 8.2:1 final drive and differential.

Just marketing speak I think. 1 speed = no gears. In this context, I
think they’re just using “automatic” to mean “no clutch”

Tim

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
No doubt tempered by the fact that electric vehicles have a very
unfair advantage, given the fuel isn't taxed in the same way as
others. For the moment. I've no doubt when they become the norm, many
will look back to the good old days of the Morris Minor which was
cheap and easy to keep running.

I wonder how a Morris Minor would stack up today. It might be simple,
but you'd have a lot more visits to the garage (assuming you don't DIY,
which most people won't or can't) At £50-100/hour it doesn't exactly
come cheap to keep something like that on the road.
Plus a new Morris Minor would have to come with all the emissions and
safety complexity that weren't needed back then, making it less cheap
and DIY friendly.

And I'm sure all these EVs will need expensive garage treatment at some
point in their lives too. Or more likely just thrown away when their
expected life ends.

[alan_m]

Post by Tim+
So, having decided that we still wanted an EV, we had a quick look around
and discovered that the Kia Niro is well reviewed. Great range (>250
miles), more power, more space.

But is this range figure a true operating range or is it similar to the
miles per litre figures for petrol cars which are somewhat fictional?

Is the manufacturers range figure for a stripped down car, only the
driver, not using the cabin heater or air con, utilising a brand new
battery from fully charge right down to zero charge (which is not the
recommended usage), only on a level road with no hills, constant speed etc.?

[Tim+]

Post by alan_m

Post by Tim+
So, having decided that we still wanted an EV, we had a quick look around
and discovered that the Kia Niro is well reviewed. Great range (>250
miles), more power, more space.

But is this range figure a true operating range or is it similar to the
miles per litre figures for petrol cars which are somewhat fictional?

Kia have a reputation for being much more honest than many manufacturers.

Tim

[Peter Hill]

Post by alan_m

Post by Tim+
So, having decided that we still wanted an EV, we had a quick look around
and discovered that the Kia Niro is well reviewed.  Great range (>250
miles), more power, more space.

But is this range figure a true operating range or is it similar to the
miles per litre figures for petrol cars which are somewhat fictional?
Is the manufacturers range figure for a stripped down car, only the
driver, not using the cabin heater or air con, utilising a brand new
battery from fully charge right down to zero charge (which is not the
recommended usage), only on a level road with no hills, constant speed etc.?

Do you not have the internet?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Harmonised_Light_Vehicles_Test_Procedure
Car NEDC autonomy WLTP autonomy Decrease
Renualt Zoé 400 km 300 km 25 %
BMW i3 300 km 245 km 18%
Hyundai Kona électrique 64 kWh 546 km 482 km 12%

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1118414_explainer-what-is-wltp-and-why-should-you-care

"Considering electric-car range estimates, for example, the 2018 Nissan
Leaf gets a 151-mile range rating from the EPA. Under old European
standards, it was estimated at 235.5 miles of range. Under the WLTP
tests, it is expected to be rated at 167.7 miles."

[Tim+]

Post by alan_m

Post by Tim+
So, having decided that we still wanted an EV, we had a quick look around
and discovered that the Kia Niro is well reviewed. Great range (>250
miles), more power, more space.

But is this range figure a true operating range or is it similar to the
miles per litre figures for petrol cars which are somewhat fictional?

Real world test at motorway speeds. Fast forward to 25 min.

Tim

[Steve H]

Post by Tim+
So, you have been warned. Test drive an EV and you stand a serious risk of
becoming an EV bore and proselytiser.;-)

I've driven all sorts of stuff - both on the road and on the track.

Modern PHEVs are where it's at.

Enough range for many people to commute on electric only, but an ICE
powerplant for longer journeys.

I think the future will see the ICE replaced by fuel cell - so you can
plug in and get 50-100 miles from the battery, but have hydrogen for
long range travel.

Charging is still a massive elephant in the room.

Fine if you can plug in at home on 11kW, if you can't, then you're
reliant on the public charging network. Which is unreliable and gets
overloaded at pinch points.

My big example here is Exeter services on a summer Friday. Thousands of
people set off from London and the SE with a full charge, heading for
Cornwall. By the time they get to Exeter, they need a charge... how many
chargers do you need and can the grid cope? - answer: more than you
could ever install and no.

Install costs for chargers are silly, too - one 50kW charger costs as
much as a full set of new petrol pumps for a forecourt (circa £50-£80k),
150kW... start at £200k if the local grid can cope. But you can get to
£2m quite easily if the main feed is the wrong side of a dual carriageway.

Then you get charge throttling when busy - Tesla are installing shipping
containers of batteries to try and get around this. Not perfect, but a
bit of a kludge - and Tesla chargers halve their rate if 2 people use
one 'station'.

I've done 1000 miles in 3 days. EV would be an utter pain in the arse
for my use. So I have a PHEV on order.

[Peter Hill]

Post by Steve H

Post by Tim+
So, you have been warned. Test drive an EV and you stand a serious risk of
becoming an EV bore and proselytiser.;-)

I've driven all sorts of stuff - both on the road and on the track.
Modern PHEVs are where it's at.
Enough range for many people to commute on electric only, but an ICE
powerplant for longer journeys.
I think the future will see the ICE replaced by fuel cell - so you can
plug in and get 50-100 miles from the battery, but have hydrogen for
long range travel.
Charging is still a massive elephant in the room.
Fine if you can plug in at home on 11kW, if you can't, then you're
reliant on the public charging network. Which is unreliable and gets
overloaded at pinch points.
My big example here is Exeter services on a summer Friday. Thousands of
people set off from London and the SE with a full charge, heading for
Cornwall. By the time they get to Exeter, they need a charge... how many
chargers do you need and can the grid cope? - answer: more than you
could ever install and no.
Install costs for chargers are silly, too - one 50kW charger costs as
much as a full set of new petrol pumps for a forecourt (circa £50-£80k),
150kW... start at £200k if the local grid can cope. But you can get to
£2m quite easily if the main feed is the wrong side of a dual carriageway.
Then you get charge throttling when busy - Tesla are installing shipping
containers of batteries to try and get around this. Not perfect, but a
bit of a kludge - and Tesla chargers halve their rate if 2 people use
one 'station'.
I've done 1000 miles in 3 days. EV would be an utter pain in the arse
for my use. So I have a PHEV on order.

ICE banned in 2035. PHEV and self charging hybrids also banned in 2035
as the ICE is banned. (I have no idea why Toyota are still pushing self
charging so hard. All self charge electricity is made with a 25%
efficient ICE instead of 40+% grid power or clean wind/solar.)

Hydrogen filling station has some big disadvantages.

Two types.

1: Bulk fill, they bring a tanker to fill tanks at the filling station
just like a petrol station. They fill that tanker with H2 made using a
very dirty process. This is also how they intend to make H2 to
supplement the domestic natural gas that we have run out off as we burnt
it in gas turbines instead of our homes.

2: Electrolysis. The filling station has a shipping container for each
pump. The shipping container has a small H2 tank that will fill 3 car
tanks and a mains powered Electrolysis unit that fills that tank. It
takes 90 min for the Electrolysis unit to make one car tank of fuel. It
will fill the supply tank in 4.5 hours. One shipping container can only
fill 16 cars a day. As it can only fill 3 car tanks (10 min each) if 4
cars are filled from 1/4 empty to fully full first thing in morning the
5th car has to WAIT 20 min while H2 is made or leave with a 3/4 full
tank, 5th, 6th etc cars all have to WAIT 50 min while H2 is made before
they can refill. Just like an EV rapid charge point it needs a quite
beefy power supply, around 100Kw/h.

And people were concerned about the 15-30min they had to spend waiting
for a pure EV to charge. With H2 you will have be the early bird, get up
at 4am one day each week and go the fill the tank.

[Theo]

Post by Peter Hill
ICE banned in 2035. PHEV and self charging hybrids also banned in 2035
as the ICE is banned. (I have no idea why Toyota are still pushing self
charging so hard. All self charge electricity is made with a 25%
efficient ICE instead of 40+% grid power or clean wind/solar.)

I think the usual way of looking at this is a bit upside down.

Self-charging hybrid (urgh at that name) isn't an electric car at all, it's
a better kind of automatic transmission. It's a transmission that's less
laggy than a torque converter and less fragile than clutch-and-computer
semi-automatic transmissions. If done right it gives you more and smoother
power in acceleration than the ICE would. And it's more 'efficient' in
terms of MPG than either a manual or a conventional auto. The efficiency
comes in a different way and a different driving pattern than traditional
ICE cars, but fundamentally it doesn't change the idea of petrol in, motion
out.

The competitor for such 'SCHV's is conventional ICE cars, it isn't EVs. All
the usual ICE requirements about filling up, emissions, etc still apply.

EVs are a different class, and PHEVs are the real 'hybrid' between ICE and
BEV.

Theo

[T i m]

On 10 Aug 2020 19:09:26 GMT, Tim+ <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

;-(

Post by Tim+
So, you have been warned. Test drive an EV and you stand a serious risk of
becoming an EV bore and proselytiser. ;-)

Given I have owned and driven as a 'daily driver' a plug in RV for
over 35 years now I can remember the similar feeling I experienced at
that time.

Even though it only has a top speed of 30 MPH and a range of 20 miles,
the thing that makes them so different still existed even then.

I think the turning radius was 'ridiculous' (out turn a London Taxi
and allow you to do a U turn in most side streets) and the general
silence was deafening (given it is a soft top).

But for me the biggest issue was the *real simplicity*. No 'water
cooled / heated batteries', no fancy control electronics and dash,
just simple battery voltage / combination switching and a couple of
different motor wiring configurations gave you the smoothness of
driving an auto.

So, when I got it to mine I though I'd give it a service. I took the
wheels off and checked / adjusted the brakes, checked the tyres and
pressures, lights and wipers ... and that was it. ;-)

No plugs, points, belts, exhaust systems, gearbox, water to leak or
oil to drip .. just a check of the electrolyte level and you were
done. ;-)

Charge overnight on E7 and I could commute (with 3 passengers
potentially) for a fortnight on 50p of lekky. ;-)

Ok, possibly no real tech or performance improvement on the first
electrically powered vehicles but I bet the buzz was the same. ;-)

It was equally 'different' racing the electric motorbike I built.
Strange to be 'racing' but still hear the birds singing. ;-)

Cheers, T i m